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by Hired Dog on 19 February 2014 - 20:02
Titles dont get passed on in breeding and bitches that can produce need to breed, not title. Yes, you train all your dogs, but, a good bitch is far more valuable in being bred then being titled, plus, a good trainer can train and title an inferior dog so it makes very little difference.
How many titled dogs are being bred today simply because they are titled? How many of those titled dogs should be breeding?
How many titled dogs are being bred today simply because they are titled? How many of those titled dogs should be breeding?
by RLHAR on 19 February 2014 - 20:02
I don't really disagree with you Fry but just to play a little devil's advocate.
Titling an intact female is a PITA. If she comes into heat or is anywhere near her season you're basically treated like biohazard both in training and in trialing. You have to train her last late in the day on the field and when the helper is already tired from working other dogs, find different tracking grounds, relieve her somewhere different and in trialing have to trial her last. Also some females get hormonal when they are in season. When my female was intact, training her during her heat was an exercise in frustration because her attention was anywhere but on me and what we were doing.
By the time I had put the IPO I on her, through training her up to that level and trialing her I already knew that she was not breed worthy. I didn't need to continue her to her II and her III to make my determination I had put 2 solid years into working her and I knew her strengths and her weaknesses. Though she had great temperment, fantastic health results, excellent prey drive and excellent workability, she had bad grips, no fight drive and was very prone to becoming conflicted when faced with an unknown and though I love her build she is definitely what a lot of people like to call the "coyote" build working line.
So I spayed her and continued on doing tracking titles with her because she loved tracking!
I would say it's not the *titles* that really teach you anything about the dog. It's the work and training you do with the dog that lets you see what kind of individual you have and if they are breed worthy. For me, personally I like to see an IPO I on the mother of a puppy I was considering as a starting point. My next question would be did the breeder of the litter put that title on her and what can they tell me about her strengths, weaknesses and how the stud dog they chose complimented her.
Titling an intact female is a PITA. If she comes into heat or is anywhere near her season you're basically treated like biohazard both in training and in trialing. You have to train her last late in the day on the field and when the helper is already tired from working other dogs, find different tracking grounds, relieve her somewhere different and in trialing have to trial her last. Also some females get hormonal when they are in season. When my female was intact, training her during her heat was an exercise in frustration because her attention was anywhere but on me and what we were doing.
By the time I had put the IPO I on her, through training her up to that level and trialing her I already knew that she was not breed worthy. I didn't need to continue her to her II and her III to make my determination I had put 2 solid years into working her and I knew her strengths and her weaknesses. Though she had great temperment, fantastic health results, excellent prey drive and excellent workability, she had bad grips, no fight drive and was very prone to becoming conflicted when faced with an unknown and though I love her build she is definitely what a lot of people like to call the "coyote" build working line.
So I spayed her and continued on doing tracking titles with her because she loved tracking!
I would say it's not the *titles* that really teach you anything about the dog. It's the work and training you do with the dog that lets you see what kind of individual you have and if they are breed worthy. For me, personally I like to see an IPO I on the mother of a puppy I was considering as a starting point. My next question would be did the breeder of the litter put that title on her and what can they tell me about her strengths, weaknesses and how the stud dog they chose complimented her.
by gsdstudent on 19 February 2014 - 20:02
i think the amount of untitled dogs being bred here in the USA would dwarf the amount of titled dogs being bred. I argue for titles to 1] help beginners learn about the breed they want to produce. 2] to show case sires and dams. 3] to go thru the breed suitability test which will also bring in clearer criteria like certified hips and other like test. Granted a top trainer can do wonders with a dog, but if you keep trialing to higher titles or tougher trials like Nationals the poorer specimen will be exposed.
by gsdstudent on 19 February 2014 - 20:02
Our group does not stop a female from training because they are in season. I know of many times when a handler was not honest about a female being in season and trialed the dog. My male[s] must obey with their big head to ever get a chance to ''think'' with their little head.
by RLHAR on 19 February 2014 - 20:02
I've never seen anyone stopped from training, we were just made to train last/seperate/etc when my female was in season. It made an already challenging time (when she was not interested in focusing already) more challenging and frustrating being left out on the field by ourselves because everybody else was done training for the day and gone home. Hard to work on focus through a group when there is no one there to make up a group. 
by gsdstudent on 19 February 2014 - 21:02
I suggest the opposite, for your dog and the males, expose the males to this stimulas. Under control and maybe not trial like procedure, but train males around females in season. It will happen in trials. People will have dogs in their cars during the event in season. It will happen in the real world.
by RLHAR on 19 February 2014 - 21:02
It's an academic point as my female is long since spayed and at 7 retired from competing! But at the time it was not my call to make.
I do, however, agree with you about working males in all conditions and I do this with my current competition dog who is an intact male.
I do, however, agree with you about working males in all conditions and I do this with my current competition dog who is an intact male.
by dragonfry on 19 February 2014 - 21:02
Ahhh, now we have a lively and interesting discussion. Thank you all for jumping in amd making some excellent post.
As the owner of an intact female, i know all about how we girls are treated. And BioHazard is correct!
Wonder if they were so strict when all this Schutzhund stuff was just getting started?
And in Conformation females in heat are more then welcome in the ring. If you can't control your horndog well that's your problem.
Not her's. Please let keep the ball rolling.
Fry
As the owner of an intact female, i know all about how we girls are treated. And BioHazard is correct!
Wonder if they were so strict when all this Schutzhund stuff was just getting started?
And in Conformation females in heat are more then welcome in the ring. If you can't control your horndog well that's your problem.
Not her's. Please let keep the ball rolling.
Fry
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