Let's talk about inbreeding - Page 2

Experienced or not, inbreeding will create issuses that must be dealt with....what to do with the pups that inherit crap like cleft pallet or deafness.

Sunsilver is right.

 
There is a genotype ( all genes of the dog) and phenotype ( genes of what is actually showing - the dog in front of you)
If you linebreed then you are strengthening all genes ( make them more dominant) and also what is in genotype has a propensity to show in genotype.
In other words, the linebreeding and inbreeding tend to expose all the genes - good and bad.
Closer linebreeding you do, more genes you are going to expose in the phenotype. Remember if you linebreed or inbreed you are exposing ( turning into phenotype) good and bad genes as well.
If - theoretically - you have 2 perfect closely related dogs to breed, then you will produce perfect dogs and they will pass on the progeny their genes in a very pronounced way. That is ideal. But no dogs are perfect thus if your dogs have hidden ( in phenotype not expressed) bad genes then they too will be strengthened and expressed.

Why do it?
1/Inbreeding was done to see what is in dog's genotype. Good and bad.
2/ Strengthening of good genes. You have an inbred litter and one pup is perfect and rest are not as good or are bad. You then select the perfect one because s/he will pass on progeny what s/he is.
3/Expose bad genes in your breeding line and make sure that you do not breed on those problems when you are outcrossing.
That is what is happening in nature where close linebreeding or inbreeding is common. The bad gene individuals will not survive the natural competition. That strengthens the genetics of the pack. If 2 animals like this from 2 different genetic pools ( like from 2 different packs of wolves for example) they then broaden genetic pool where these pools are now free of bad genes or bad genes are way in the background. That is why animals in nature are more healthy then if bred in captivity. Mather nature mercilessly culled individuals with bad genes.

Why not do it?
1/ With inbreeding you will most likely expose some problems. Individuals must be culled or at least not bred under any circumstance because they will very likely pass these bad genes down the line strongly enough that they will show in the phenotype ( in a dog in front of you) for many generations.
2/ You ought to have a place for pups who are expressing bad genes or you need to keep them or put them down. You must not breed them.
3/ You need to have a plan which involves at least 3-5 generations. Are you committed to it?
4/There is a no point to inbreed unless you know that behind the breeding pair are phenotypically all good dogs and you need to know that as a fact. You are inbreeding to see if there is some crud hidden in the genotype. If yes it probably will show up. There is no point to inbreed on dogs who are already expressing problems in their genotype.
4/ The problems get genetically strengthened just as well as positives.
5/Inbred dogs live shorter life ( not always but generally).

Advice
If you linebreed or closely inbreed and have excellent individual, then, next, you need to outcross on a dog with the same characteristics but from the different gene pool. That is called type breeding outcross.
I would also urge you to learn the use of male bloodlines. In that case, if you breed in two different male bloodlines you are outcrossing more than if you are outcrossing within the bloodline.

Why outcross and what are the consequences.
FYI in order for recessive genes to express themselves in phenotype, you need to have them in both parents.
If you outcross then the likelihood that bad recessive genes will meet in both parents is lessened if you outcross. For that reason, dogs who are outcrossed are healthier and live longer. The problem with outcrossing is that you are not eliminating problems you are just lowering the probability of the problems to meet in both parents.
Personally, I have inbred only one time in my life and it was a success. But I do not recommend it for the beginners. Linebreeding is a safer way to go and you DO(!) need to linebreed in order to improve the breed. If you only outcross, then you are breeding GSD mutts and are not eliminating bad genes but are collecting them. You are going backward. Linebreding is essential to the good breeding program. Remember you line breed to strengthen certain traits. When you have a resulting individual who is expressing these desirable characteristics, then next you should outcross to the same type of characteristics. ( Outcross type breeding) You can outcross to an outcross but it is usually better to outcross on individual who is also linebred for those characteristics and expresses them and/or produces them.
Also if you outcross two imperfect dogs it is not as definite multigenerational issue as it would be in inbreeding or linebreeding.

Accidents.
If you have accidental inbreeding, do not cry over spilled milk. It is what it is. You will not get dogs with 3 legs and 1 eye, do not worry about that. Just watch for some bad temperament and structural abnormalities like missing teeth, missing testicles, bad hips and elbows, floppy years, bad proportions, faulty coat, poor pigmentation, light eyes and so on because they will get passed down the line strongly for many generations if you breed such individual. So do not breed that individual with ANY of such shortcomings. You may be lucky and get something special. Then do not hesitate to use it in your breeding program. If the dogs are so so - mediocre then do not use them in your future breeding.

inbreeding depression is bullshit story, it all has to do with proper selection which humans suck at, thats the whole deal, in the wild its simple, if you cannot survive, for whatever reason, you will not reproduce, where humans pamper any crappy pup for either money or emotional reasons, and breed it as soon as its ready to do so

please do tell me where did, for example crocodiles, or zebras find strange blood to outcross for  thousand of generations, and why do same crocs and zebras look 99,9% identical, with only small differences between groups from individual regions, which is a clear proof that they are strongly inbred

look at boa constrictors, where you can see there region of origin by there colour pattern, which is clearly another result of inbreeding

now in german shepherds we can hardly recognize the pups that come from same litter, just think about that

furthermore, and more important is that in the german shepherd breed there are just not enough individual lines to truly outcross for more than two or three generations without running into unwanted doubling up on names/dogs anyway

 

I once did a breeding, would not have been considered an in breeding, although it was 100% ASL. 5 of 6 puppies had mega e.

so, in bred or out bred, there are still issues to be dealt with.

jmo,
Rik

edit to add, looks like I posted at the same time as duke. just in my opinion only, he is correct.

outcrossing creates fake feeling of improvement, when you have a dog with a problem, you outcross it and the problem doesnot show up in your pups DOESNOT mean you got rid of the problem, your pup still has it in its genetic package, which he will pass on once bred

Duke, I've watched 'inbreeding depression' happen in real time, in a captive herd of deer, so it does exist, its not bullshit. The herd were happily living their life, with no new blood introduced, then gradually there started to be not just premature death of calves, but those that lived had things wrong with them. Culled out the stags, put in a new couple of males bought from elsewhere, and the herd began to have healthy babies once again. QED.

Wild animals have narrow genetics per species.....that's what makes them individual and separate species. No other animal in the animal kingdom is as genetically diverse as the domestic dog. Inbreeding is detrimental to species...that's why the adult male's run the young adult males off...so there won't be inbreeding. Happens in all species to some degree.
Itdoes not take inbreeding to narrow the gentetic diversity within all species....except domestic dogs.
Boas have color paterns for camophlage ...in fact, military utilises the camo such as the boa has evolved  depending on the environment....it is evolution which you are confusing with inbreeding.

Duke, I believe you are misinformed as to why zebras look like zebras and not look like Clydesdale horses.

The chetah is in danger of extinction because of such a small gene pool. The northern white rhinoceros is now extinct because of infertility due to extreme inbreeding.

Captive elephants are being ai' d to prevent inbreeding and extinction within captive herds.

Alligators do not allow young bulls to live in the same territory....prevents inbreeding.
In fact, young alligators become meals for the adults if they hang around long enough...inspires the young to go find their own place to live which prevents inbreeding.

From what I have read lately, new research is showing that wolves in the wild will not resort to inbreeding (mother/son - Father/daughter) if they can.

Males wolves will leave the pack at maturity and find a female from another pack, and create their own pack...Becoming the leaders of their new pack which usually consists of immediate family members. Mom, Dad and kids.

In our modern world, the wolves might resort to it more than they normally would, out of necessity...if their territories are reduced or decimated, or the animals are randomly culled by cattle people, which destroys these stable family packs for ever.

But on the other hand, von Stephanitz did inbreed the first GSDs, a lot, to stabilize the breed standard. And had to do so again, after WWI, which happened too soon after the breed was established, when so much of the stock was wiped out because of the war.

I’m no breeder, but it is all very interesting to contemplate what everyone is saying.
 

Jesse, wolves will avoid inbreeding to the point that they have been breeding with coyotes, producing the coywolf hybrid, rather than inbreed.
Nature protects species from inbreeding in ways that appear to most as " bullying," such as the buffalo bull slammng the the younger bull even to death if the young bull is too ignorant to leave the herd.
The white tail buck rearing up and pawing the young spike is sending the message..." Get lost, kid or your dead meat!"
The adult buck is not going to allow the the younger male to breed his does....prevents inbreeding.

 

Stephanitz so not do anything new by inbreeding to create the gsd....inbreeding is utilized to create all breeds of dogs, xcept indiginous breeds such as the basinji and saluki.

I have inbred father to daughter in four litters, two different daughters. Then taken one of the resulting males and bred to it's aunt (the other daughter) for two litters. Those two litters were technically an outcross, of a lower inbreeding coefficient. I've been very pleased with my results, and no genetic mishaps thus far, but I probably wouldn't consider this type of breeding with a majority of bloodlines (and certainly not from gene pools selected for show characteristics).

I absolutely agree with Duke, our highly educated animal "experts" have been pounded since their early youth that "genetic diversity" is a concept for the good of any species. It's simply an unproven idea taken on faith.

For a while there, the northwest wild wolf population was doubling every year before management practices halted the insanity. The "reintroduction" program was pooled by 66 wolves brought in from Canada, that were in NO DOUBT, interrelated already before multiplying in excess of 1000 animals across three regions, of at least 76 viable breeding pairs.

Of the Mexican wild wolf population of the southwest, there's not likely one animal that isn't related to a once captive female (born 1997), "F521". Every single Mexican gray wolf can trace it's lineage to seven captured wolves in the late 1970s.