Defective Male-Any Rights? - Page 2

There is such a thing as an implied contract,, you would have to check your local laws. As far as either slander or libel they are both very hard to prove in court.  First, he would need to prove that the statements made were false, then prove that there were monetary damages, then prove what those damages were.  I wouldn't worry about it.

Katjo74,

Unfortunately without a written contract you are SOL.  I doubt that any puppy lemon laws would help you in this situation if the dog is otherwise healthy.  If I am not mistaken, those laws are designed to protect consumers from getting a very sick puppy, not just one that isn't breed-worthy. 

That being said, I think your "world class breeder" is full of s*** by trying to accuse you of slander if you've got vet records to show his a bona fide cryptorchid.  Two years ago I purchased a SchH prospect that turned out to be a cryptorchid male.  I had NO problems getting a replacement puppy.  All the breeder asked for was to had over the AKC papers.  Didn't need to return the dog.  Didn't need proof of any kind.  Didn't need to wait for another breeding - he gave me his "pick of the litter" male that he was holding back for himself.  Now THAT is how a "world class breeder" ought to behave!

Going to court won't help you because you don't have a written contract.  One option, though not a pretty one, is to tell this joker you'll go public with your gripe.  Careful - this could get ugly.  Even if you just stick to the facts you can expect your "world class breeder"'s buddies to come out of the woodwork and blast you for it. 

Occasionally this works.  We had a couple show up at my club a few years ago with a severly dysplastic puppy out of a "world class breeder".  Poor thing could hardly walk straight.  No written guarantee.  The breeder didn't want to replace the pup or refund or anything.  So, owners went public with the info.  Owners got flamed big time as the breeder's buddies ganged up on them.  However, in the end, the couple got a replacement puppy as Mr. World Class didn't want the negative press.  Ugly ugly ugly, but effective.

Proceed with caution.  Unfortunately, there is no "right answer" for this situation.  Moreover, I freely admit I am biased.  A few years ago I bought an expensive import from a "world class" guy in CA and got a spooky nerve bag of a dog.  Finally got it straightened out but lost a good chunk of money along the way.  So, don't let me bias you.  Decide for yourself what course of action you should take.

Yvette

Thank you all-I appreciate your insights.

Every claim this breeder made on my pup's litter at the time of purchase I printed out so yes, I have it all in print right from the breeder's website, the emails between us, vet report, everything from the first time we started corresponding.
The pups were said they would be tattoed-it wasn't done, either-a clear inconsistency with advertising, too. i was clear right from the start to the breeder what I wanted and needed nothing less. I have all documentation for everything. I wouldn't be doing this unless I did. My breeder claimed on his website when I purchased my male that my boys sire was DNAed and carried "no predispositions for genetic defects"---yet he sired my pup! And yes, I have that 'in writing' also. Info on breeder websites change I know, so I printed out everything when getting my pup, including the breeder's "Code of Ethics". No contracts are on the website because no contracts exist there in any form EVER. Just a statement where the breeder says they stands behind thier clients before, during, & after the sale. I have to disagree with the breeder's claim, and I have the claim also printed out.

If this male is not neutered, then he could be a candidate for cancer over the retained testicle and more serious neutering surgery due to it-I certainly didn't purchase that, so should he be considered 'healthy' when he could die of cancer at a relatively young age if we don't have surgery done to remove the retained testicle? Believe me, expensive neutering surgery wasn't supposed to be a part of purchasing a breeding quality male! We know of one documented case this year where a personal friend got sold a cryptorchid GSD only to have him DIE during the more extensive neutering surgery that her vet had to perform due to the defect. We don't need that on top of everything else.

And yes, this breeder has sold a cryptorchid male over 2yrs ago to a client who also wanted a future breeding dog and did the same with that client as they are me, just nastier with me. And the breeder wouldn't replace that pup, either. The attitude clearly given was 'you've done hurt my good reputation, so I have no incentive to help you further'. Amazing.

And the breeder sold a client a female last year around the time I got my male (different litter)  who had a clear physical for a schutzhund prospect (her defect would cause her to never score high in conformation rating at the least), and I believe that client got an attorney to deal with the situation.

I would never publicize negative comments about someone in public whether its deserved or not because I'm not a person to be out to get anyone or cause needless mess for myself and my good family who's done been thru enough. I'm just very sad and frustrated and thanks to this breeder doing this, I've wasted 16 mos and alot of $$ to raise this boy.  And I think it's very sad for a 'world' class breeder to sell a pup to someone knowing what they need but not caring about it and at the very least making it right. It's unethical & unfair. And I have made NO comment that can't be proven with the stuff we've got printed-everything is fact and accurate.

>>>If this male is not neutered, then he could be a candidate for cancer over the retained testicle and more serious neutering surgery due to it-I certainly didn't purchase that, so should he be considered 'healthy' when he could die of cancer at a relatively young age if we don't have surgery done to remove the retained testicle? Believe me, expensive neutering surgery wasn't supposed to be a part of purchasing a breeding quality male! We know of one documented case this year where a personal friend got sold a cryptorchid GSD only to have him DIE during the more extensive neutering surgery that her vet had to perform due to the defect. We don't need that on top of everything else.<<<

Some vets like to scare you over this one, they love to neuter--easy money----but the fact is that cancer does not commonly affect the retained testicle, if ever, until much later in the dog's life, like age 7 years.  So relax on that one, it is not an emergency.  Also, anytime you put an animal under for a procedure, you take a risk of death.  It's a relatively low risk, but it happens. 

We have not heard the breeder's side of all this--but if what you say is true, then he should be willing to work something out with you concerning a breeding replacement, contract or no, if he was of the understanding that this male was to be shown, titled, hip evaluated, and someday bred.

Scuttlebutt is sometimes correct, and sometimes not.  I would think someone buying a two year old dog for breeding would have the common either looked at his testicles himself, or had a vet do a breeding exam before purchase.  Most people get semen counts and a host of other tests.  I will when I buy a male dog for breeding.

Contact the Attorney General of his state, Ohio, right?  I have used this method to obtain a refund from a breeder.  They will write him a letter and negotiate a settlement for you for free, before you go through the expense of legal action.  It might be best to not use his name at this time, it will make him less inclined to refund your money/puppy if he feels he has nothing to lose anyway.  You can always tell his name later, if negotiations with the Attorney General of Ohio does not get your money back.

Good luck--Veronica

Done talked with Attny General. Since the male was purchased for breeding, then it's not considered a 'private' issue. They
will only deal with things where your and individual who didn't get what they paid for. i do occassional breeding, so that makes
me considered a breeder, also. They suggest getting an attny for such and can't help.

The male was purchased as an 8wk old pup. And believe me, I will NEVER make such a mistake again.

Everything I have said is accurate and true. And I am the 3rd person to have such genetic issues with a dog
being substandard to what was being purchased that I know of from this one breeder. They got the same
attitude back about it also. The breeder doesn't want to make it right, and they use threaten-tactics to try to
keep us quiet about it. I guess they feel a lack of a contract is the way to go, but charge big prices for their
world class litters to make the maximum $$. It's not right.

If this was a pick male, were not his testicles descended at 8 weeks of age?

We are in the same boat re; purchasing dog from so-called world class breeder.  Our pup has only one testical. He is a replacement for pup who had elbow dysplasia.  Of course, no guarantee, but then who would try again. What upsets me is the fact that the parents are still being bred. After being informed of problems, Breeder never admitted responsibility, the blame was put on us. According to Breeder, our dogs were the only ones with problems.

I intend to submit pics and info along with pedigrees , to this sight. Should be interesting!!!

Been there done that also. Never got a dime because the breeder was on the Eastern Shore of VA and never would have gotten a frair trial. Mine was cryptoric and had bad hips. She had the balls of the line when she told my vet that she didn't know how to read an xray. And that his nut was there it must have went back up???? Wtf  But you know what I fixed him and loved him and he became my best friend in the whole world. subsequently I had an oral contract with a high end breeder. Female had bad hips she asked me to keep her or return her for another I chose to keep her and then she gave me a male as a replacement, cryptoric. She wanted the male back because he has a very well known high priced daddy and if she got him back he would be dead. But she did return every dime of my money so for that I have to give her credit. And I have two dogs that are beautiful and would be dead right now if I had given them back. I don't have the heart to breed it is rescue from here on out. Like my vet says all things for a reason. Yea it wasn't how you planned but my first one guy turned out to be the world's greatest dog. He even taught the little boy across the street to talk. You should have seen this boys mom with a 100 pound shepherd sitting on the dog and poking his nose and finally started to say noes, ears, mouth, scared her to death but it means he was brought to me for a reason. Turn the negative into a positive, I would try and sue but all the contracts I have seen are covering hips not testicles. In the meantime spread the word on the breeder to anyone and everyone that will listen.

"Unfortunately without a written contract you are SOL."

Not always true, by any stretch.  An oral contract whose terms can be proven by communications and conduct is every bit as enforceable at law as a written contract. 

There are some deals for things like the sale of real estate or leases of land for a term of one year or more that fall under the "Statute of Frauds" and thus require a written contract to sue for Breach of Contract, but most deals for goods - and under the law, dogs are goods -  can be orally contracted and such contracts are enforceable at law. 

The preference of the party seeking to recover for a deal gone bad is almost always to be able to prove a contract and thus be entitled to expectation damages, which is most often a fancy way of saying "all the money I woulda made if the other side hadn't screwed me" and is usually the most comprehensive form of contract damages.  But even in the absence of an enforceable contract, there are other legal claims such as Quasi-Contract, Unjust Enrichment and Quantum Meruit that can lead to damages "in reliance" upon the would-be contract and/or recovery of sums paid in "restitution." 

If what you say about your situation is factually accurate, then if you also live in Ohio or are in a position to travel there, then perhaps the Ohio Small Claims Court would be the way to go.  It's a waste to pay someone like me five times as much money as you could ever recover from the breeder, but the Small Claims process in most states is quite simple and straightforward. 

As for the question "are there some implied warranties when purchasing something for a certain purpose," the answer is "sorta yes."  There is an "implied warranty of merchantability" inherent in every sale of commercial goods, meaning in your case that your dog should generally be suitable as a dog.  As you have a live dog that is not in very poor health, that one is not a winner for you.  But there is also an "implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose" that comes into play when the seller knew or should have known of the buyer's specific requirements, which  in your case would mean that the breeder knew you were looking for a potential show stud absent serious, disqualifying faults.  Even in Small Claims Court, however, you would need to spend a significant amount at trial proving and then explaining to the judge or magistrate what the accepted standards are for a stud dog, then how your pup has disqualifying faults and thus could never be fit for your "particular purposes" of showing and breeding, and, finally, that the breeder knew of your "particular purposes" and sold you a pup that was defective at the time of delivery to you anyway. 

You should also find out what Ohio has by way of consumer protection laws.  In some jurisdictions, a prevailing Plaintiff can recover multiple damages if the Defendant is found to have committed "unfair or deceptive acts or practices," and the acts or practices were also "willful and knowing."  Getting testimony or affidavits from the two other parties whom you also believe were screwed by this breeder would be extremely helpful to prove both the "acts and practices" element necessary to win such a claim, and also to demonstrate that the practices were part and parcel of the breeder's way of doing business to increase your chances of obtaining multiple damages by proving that his conduct was "willful and knowing."  But you will need to check Ohio law to see what it provides in that regard.