Biter in a Group Obedience Class - Page 2

I've been teaching group classes (on and off leash obedience, tricks, and rally classes) for over 10 years. Any dog who I feel poses a threat to other dogs or people in class must wear a muzzle if they want to continue to attend my class. In some ways, having a dog who acts up (within reason) can actually have great benefit to an entire class.

Aggression really should be resolved in private training, but unfortunately, many people cannot afford private lessons. A group class is the most affordable way for an owner to get at least some training. I will be very blunt with an owner regarding the dog's training needs, and have on occasion gone to my boss and begged a discount to get the dog the help it needs. But sometimes, class is all the owner can do.

That said, there are many trainers out there who are not suitably experienced to coach an owner of an aggressive dog, and should be honest with the owner when the dog is outside if their realm of experience. Too often "trainers" will kick an aggressive dog out of training altogether, labeling the dog as dangerous or unworkable simply because they lack the ability to resolve the issue.

There are different levels of aggression that manifest in different ways. Some of them are surprisingly easy to control if you put yourself in the hands of the right trainer.

Excellent comments, people-glad to see some common sense! :)

I have a really great system worked out with a retail store. I set my own hours, rules, prices  and so on and they do all my advertising and provide my training space. I did private lessons in home for a long time before switching to group, and I like it. 

I've had some barky, growly dogs in class and I do normal, industry-standard things like set up blinds, counter condition and desensitize- but NOT on dogs who have bitten a human being in aggression. I've even worked with dogs who had a bite history on OTHER DOGS in a group class, depending on the circumstances (I define 'bite' in a dog-dog context as 'required stiches')- but never, ever at the risk of myself or another client's dog. 

To date, I've only dismissed three dogs due to bite history problems. I sent them to dog behaviorists- one with a Master's in behavior, CPDT-KA and so on, and the other a veterinary behaviorist. That's who I refer to. They're over three hours away (one is three, one is ten) and they charge a LOT. Part of me feels bad. I charge a low group rate and a low private rate per industry standard, and I know one of the owners couldn't afford the training, BUT. 

If you can't afford to spend $500-1500 on a behaviorist an some insurance, you can't afford a dog with a bite history! One dog came in on the end of his leash, foaming at the mouth, hackles up, barking and growling and slinging spit everywhere. I thought I'd try it and gave the owner a basket muzzle. After two minutes it was clear the owner was going to get hurt trying to muzzle the dog. I had a private heart-to-heart with him and it turned out the dog had bitten someone in the past, besides being obviously batsh*t insane. I gave him my "aggressive dog letter" with the referrals on it and a place to get a dog owner's liabilty package. If you can't afford that, you can't afford to pay attorney's fees, hospital bills, fines and so on when your dog hurts someone because you didn't get the training they need. 

The other two dogs had taken part in biting a little girl and I have no idea why they weren't euthanized. She was still in the hospital when they tried to bring these vicious dogs to my group class. 

I don't think it's a good place for a dog that honestly might bite someone to learn obedience- the dog is obviously stressed or it wouldn't try to bite and it's not fair to other customers. I take safety very, very seriously and it's my job before anything else- customer satisfaction, even training the dogs- to make sure EVERYONE is safe, including myself. I wouldn't hesitate to send those dogs away again, even if I knew they were euthanized as a result, because it's just not worth it to all the other dogs who aren't an unprovoked threat to a human being. Trained biters are one thing; a loose cannon is another. 

I would get together with the other classmates, who probably feel the same as you do, and petition to have the bad dog excused. 

And on a final note- just from a selfish economic standpoint, NO WAY would I do all the hard work, assume all the liability, and risk bodily and mental injury to myself and a class full of other innocent people and dogs for a GROUP RATE fee. If it were a dog I felt qualified to deal with, triple my group rate fee might be enough. If it were not a dog I felt qualified to deal with, there isn't enough money in the world for me to teach the dog because that's unethical and wrong. I know my limits and it's not fair or right to try to work with a dog I don't stand a good chance of fixing for money. 

Also what kind of trainer allows themself to be bitten not once but multiple times? I've only been surprised by a dog bite ONCE. I've been bitten more than that, but it was kind of an I saw it coming but had something I needed to do anyway or needed to muzzle the dog kind of thing (injuries, grooming at a crappy salon, and so on.) Overall given my face time with dogs and particularly problem dogs, my number of bites is pretty low and my number of serious bites is very, very low. If you can't see bites coming you aren't ready to train professionally IMO. 

Here's the problem with avoiding being bit. Let's say the dog isn't muzzled. You see it coming, what do you do? Pull your hand away? String the dog away from your body? Well, now you're screwed. That dog now knows damn well it can scare you into stopping doing what you're doing. A trainer's success rate with aggressive dogs rests largely on their confidence level. I know how to read a dog, and if the dog is going to seriously do me damage I'm going to muzzle it or have the owner muzzle it before I handle it.

To some extent, you have to let a dog try to tag you sometimes. You can't teach what the consequence is for biting unless you let the dog have a go at it. If you're too chicken to take a little bruise now and then, you may not be cut out to work with aggressive dogs on a professional level.

Truly dangerous dogs, that will chew you up trying to muzzle it, beat the living hell out of you once the muzzle's on, and will fly off the handle constantly with no provocation are actually few and far between. Most dogs labeled as dangerous or unstable are actually just spoiled rotten little sh*ts that need some discipline in their lives and are utterly shocked when I step in and refuse to let them back me down. When a dog has been successfully scaring people away and suddenly it doesn't work, I won't lie to you, the look on their face is just priceless.

I really, really, have to stress that working a dog like this takes a high level or experience and ability and you can take a dog to 20 "professional trainers" and you'll be lucky if you find ONE that really knows how to work with the dog. And the owner better not be a softie, or all the trainers work goes down the toilet. You need a backbone, you need to be strong and firm and you can show NO pity when addressing that behavior- but at the same time you must be fair, encouraging, loving, and calm.

I mentioned before dogs who act out serve a purpose for everyone in a class. In the real world, dogs you see in your park or vet's office are almost never trained and usually their manners are crap. In the real world, your dog will be barked at, lunged at, eyeballed. Your dog will also have happy but naughty dogs try to pounce them, stick their nose up their butt when your dog is trying to heel, etc. I NEVER want the owner of a misbehaving dog in my class to feel guilty, because they are providing everyone with a viable, real world distraction! How do I train a dog to ignore a dog that is actuing like a dumbass if every dog in class is being an angel? And what better place to proof it than in the secure, safe, non-judgmental environment of my class?

Please take this post within reason. A truly dangerous, unsafe dog needs private work. Nails and muzzles still hurt like a b*itch when a dog is determined. I will say, I instruct several hundred dogs a year, for well over a decade. I can count on one hand the number of dogs I've told cannot stay in a class.  Most of these dogs are misread and/or the "trainer" lacks the ability to work with that type of issue. I guarantee it.

I totally agree VonIsengard ! 

 

I would be very unhappy if I paid for a class and my dog or myself was put at risk knowingly by the instructor. there is always a first a time for everything, but after the dog shows aggression towards other dogs or humans, then it is known.

I'm talking aggression that results in injury, not the typical "I'm not sure what's going on, so I'll growl at everyone" that young dogs can display.

If I really felt my dog or myself was at risk, I would have a talk with the instructor, explain my reasons for taking the class, none of which is to get bit. ask if they are going to allow this behavior are they willing to accept the liability that comes with it,  or do they want to refund my class fee.

Yes Rik you are absolutely right;  I should have asked for my money back, god knows I don't want to attend another one of their classes.  Shit no.  But experience learned,next time, if there is one I will not hesitate to leave at first lesson, not dink around trying to make it work and hoping the cane corso does not show up.  JHC.  Nan

I don't mind acting up, barking, growling- first night's classes are usually a barking bedlam. 

But really, I'm not at a stage in my career where I can deal with a dog who has or is very likely to hurt someone. 

There's a difference between being a chicken and knowing what I am and am not qualified to do professionally. ;-) 

I know how to read a dog, and if the dog is going to seriously do me damage I'm going to muzzle it or have the owner muzzle it before I handle it.

To some extent, you have to let a dog try to tag you sometimes. You can't teach what the consequence is for biting unless you let the dog have a go at it.

I agree on being able to read the dog- usually, the ones who are going to bite (as in give you stitches) are pretty easy to pick out. 

I really like the second part here, about letting the dog try for it. To be honest, this is the big reason I'm not a true "clicker trainer" in that I don't work only in R+/P- and I do some work with flooding. I know the overall industry trend is work with a dog exclusively under threshold and counter-condition, build thresholds, desensitize, et cetera- and that's MOST of what I do with problems. Probably 95%. However, I do think there's a time and a place for working with a dog that is over threshold and allowing it to display unwanted behavior in order to effectively punish the behavior.