When did the GREAT DIVISION took place... - Page 2

We live in an age of specialization and the dog breeds we 'create' are not immune to that. The 'division' took place because of such a specialization. Not one camp is to blame. The working line people set their focus on specialized traits, the show line people set their focus on specialized traits. That will not change. The change that takes place now is within these specialized areas. The majority of working line breeders want to be on the podium and breed for that. They feel the need to breed for points, and high points quickly. The 'real' dog is not a points dog. Sport is more visible and popular than K9 or other service work. These dogs are bi-products. The points dog needs the excessive drive and willingness to work under any condition so that these days people can take their 2 year olds to the BSP whereas many years ago it was well accepted that a dog needs to be 4 or 5 for that. Hardly a working line enthusiast will bother with shows. Unless their dog does well, then all of the sudden they scramble to get the V and the upgrade to KKL1. Then they want their dog to be pretty too. Lets level the playing field and incorporate a stand and gaiting examination at the BSP. Divert some of the precious daily training time for that and see what it does to the points. Lets have the BSP protection phase while allowing people close up and right on the field, and not create a comfort zone for the dog by keeping people outside the barriers, and lets have two dogs competing in protection side by side at the same time. Like it happens at a Sieger Show. Show line people want to be on the podium and breed for that. It is not that other colours for example are not accepted by the breeders. Some colours were never popular in the ring. A black dog shows off every flaw and is disadvantaged over its multifaceted cousins. The black dog also has traits more common that impede with its show ability - often lacking bone and coat quality. Same goes for the bi-s. There are enough sable show dogs out there still, its the puppy buyers who keep the numbers down. A good dog has no colour. Far more concerning is the mahagony red fetish that leaves very good black and yellow and black and tan dogs sitting on the sidelines. Colour is not pigment. Too few show line people bother with proper SchH training as it is not where their interest lies. Most show dogs will never be able to perform better because the show line people do not stay on top of latest training techniques and do not put in the time so that they may shine there too. And justifyably so. Just like the working line person does not waste much time in the ring and show training. Show line people do ring work. Lets level the playing field and make minimum overall SchH scores and minimum protection scores mandatory for the BSZS, and also a passing qualifying trial every year. Just the upkeep on the work will increase the courage test performance considerably. That aside, no single entity, or two, can change the course of a breed to the degree described here. The Martins had two kennels, out of many. Like some others who are 'blamed' for change. Negligible influences in the great scheme of things. Not their fault if there are too many sheep following... It is always the individual breeder, and the sum of them, who produce the changes. Most breeders follow trends. Trends are dictated by what is popular. Everyone wants to be popular. *** Gustav, with this breed, like any other relatively modern breed, you are stuck with the genetic basis of the foundation dogs. There is no great genetic manipulation you can do outside of that. All the changes breeding produces are within the limitations of that initial foundation stock. The genetic base of this breed is a few hundred dogs.

DH, Then explain to me why the MUTZ vd Peltierferm and Marko vom Cellerland lines were gradually made extinct in the world of high V showlines. These dogs and their progeny were part of the equation in the early eighties. That they both were known for excellent temperament(which is lacking today in these lines uniformly), makes me wonder why they have disappeared in todays showlines. Marko never produced the Black and Red type or the extreme type, but he couldn't have been too bad he was WORLD seiger and produced VA progeny. Mutz was Black and light tan and also wasn't good to get the black and reddish/gold color or the specialty type of extreme gait, But he was VA-2, produced VA progeny and some great conformation dogs for a few generations. These dog were pillars at the same time as Canto/Quanto. Respectfully, could you explain to me the elimination for all intents and purposes of these dogs from the showline genepool? Especially when you see nice workingline conformation it usally has these two in foundation positions. If color and type didn't eliminate these dog I'm curious as to why!

Genetic manipulation, specialization,podium,I sumit to you that Marko and Mutz produced the type of dog that was winning other than color and extreme gait. These factors are not in the standard as being necessary to be a correct conformation dog. So I still need a credible answer other than my assertion, as to why these dogs linage has been eliminated from Top Showline genepool. Let me ask a rhetorical question of showline breeders on this board? If Marko vom Celllerland,(World and German Seiger)was shown today would he get VA?, V1 to V20 in the BSZS. Be honest!! Has the standard changed? Timo can't go VA1 under SV but can win the biggest dog show in Europe? Out of 2000 dogs at Seiger show only 10 to 20 sables in the whole country have the correct conformation and these almost always get low Vs. You will NEVER convince me that color and extreme type are not the criterion for today's showlines until the facts start supporting the results!

I really wanted to see Timo Berrekasten win and so is Hero Lauerhoff... Like what they said would you let an Afro-American be president in The U.S.A This year having a LADY to rule the land would be quite a FEAT... I think this is only to unify the LOOKS of the GSD and the reason why FCI Change it to HERDING GROUP... so that Working and Show Lines will not Grag each other by the throat.. Till next time.

A LADY rules Germany, and a lot of breeders used Marko, Mutz, Timo... in their breeding programs. If you count their siblings, only a few outstanding in the first generation, almost none later on. Breeders and judges ( and they are breeders, too ) are and always have been interested in a variety of lines, but there have to be dogs "worth" it. You always talk about "responsibility" and "improving the breed" on this board, but why should anybody want to buy a sable pup, if he doesn¿t like its color, why should anybody buy a high drive dog, if he only wants a comanion, and why should a SchH trainer, who wants to compete on a high level, buy a puppy out of SchH1 70-70-80 ancestors? The main standard didn¿t change, time and lifestyle changed, and the German Shepherd had to change within the standard, too, otherwise this wonderful breed would have no chance to survive.

Susie, The question was why is Marko and Mutz no longer prevalent in Showlines. There are still lines that go back on these two dogs but they are workinglines today.That in itself tells you how great these dogs were. I guess what I don't understand is that at a time when the temperament of the west showline is under seige how could the show breeders RESPONSIBLY eliminate these dogs from the genepool.I am not against the west showline per se, its that with the deficiencies I see, and the refusal to incorporate blood that will help, to me, is irresposible! The image of the dog as a noble working dog becomes a farce if you don't see them working.

I'm sorry sue ... I was referring to Mrs. Hillarry Clinton running for president... Too many female leaders nowadays ... Soon we may see Fraulein Dorrsen of vom ARLETT taking the breed to newer open minded change (for better temperament and for unification...I hope) 'till next time

I would love to see Frau Dorrsen as president of the SV. Talk about some changes! Chances are, she doesn't want the headaches. SS