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by bsceltic on 28 June 2011 - 15:06
Nancy, very good points.
My male GSD is my wilderness air scent SAR dog and he will never be trained in any type of bite or protection work even though I'll probably put a BH & AD on him. He just doesn't have the temperament for bite work and that makes it much easier for me.
My female GSD is and will always be an on-lead tracking dog or an HRD dog. No wilderness for her (she's perfectly capable). Even though she's got a great temperament and is very solid, she's also very protective and I can see where she would be more likely to react in a negative manner if I was not within sight and hearing to provide her guidance. Especially while she's so young. I will try to put a BH, FH and AD on her. It just fits with our current training and she thrives on the deversity.
My team is fine with the training and so is my SO. I've been with them for quite a while and my director along with all my SO superiors are either former K9 handlers or commanded K9 units. That helps greatly. They have a good understanding of the dogs and our training issues. My SO does allow a little more freedom in this area because I work a lot of fresh crime scenes. Although I don't do fugitive searches, we have been asked to search areas for evidence while a suspect was still being hunted. And I am a member of our Child Abduction Response Team, too. If the local jail tracking dogs aren't available for one of these searches, I will be asked to use my dogs (I'll have a LE armed escort, too).
The bottom line for most handlers and teams is why risk losing a good working dog because of an accident. If a SAR dog bites someone during a search, it's unlikely that they'll ever be allowed to work again. So do you really want to take that chance?
Melissa
My male GSD is my wilderness air scent SAR dog and he will never be trained in any type of bite or protection work even though I'll probably put a BH & AD on him. He just doesn't have the temperament for bite work and that makes it much easier for me.
My female GSD is and will always be an on-lead tracking dog or an HRD dog. No wilderness for her (she's perfectly capable). Even though she's got a great temperament and is very solid, she's also very protective and I can see where she would be more likely to react in a negative manner if I was not within sight and hearing to provide her guidance. Especially while she's so young. I will try to put a BH, FH and AD on her. It just fits with our current training and she thrives on the deversity.
My team is fine with the training and so is my SO. I've been with them for quite a while and my director along with all my SO superiors are either former K9 handlers or commanded K9 units. That helps greatly. They have a good understanding of the dogs and our training issues. My SO does allow a little more freedom in this area because I work a lot of fresh crime scenes. Although I don't do fugitive searches, we have been asked to search areas for evidence while a suspect was still being hunted. And I am a member of our Child Abduction Response Team, too. If the local jail tracking dogs aren't available for one of these searches, I will be asked to use my dogs (I'll have a LE armed escort, too).
The bottom line for most handlers and teams is why risk losing a good working dog because of an accident. If a SAR dog bites someone during a search, it's unlikely that they'll ever be allowed to work again. So do you really want to take that chance?
Melissa
by Siantha on 28 June 2011 - 16:06
SAR groups are a joke where i live. the people are asses my shepherd dislikes when i am upset and usualy trys to pinpoint who is upsetting me and get inbetween me and that person. well i was getting yelled at for having my dog out of my car. that it was a major liability bla bla. i was transfering groups where my dog had bin a working sar dog and had gone through all the ropes and has her CGC its such a pain
i also had my male who was being trained for schutzhund had only bit the sleeve once but he wasent a sleeve driven dog he was very civil he ignored people could care less if they where around but the group felt that because he had bittin on a sleeve once he was not safe to use. half of this teams dogs didnt listen to their handlers they just did their own thing and the handler followed the footsteps or the flags. the one dog that did find me refuzed to come to me up the hill because he didnt want to walk up the hill.... are u kidding also their one certified tracking dog the woman didnt even know if he would find a person or lead her on a animal trail.... im sorry but thats worthless in all. dogs can be cross trained and dogs know the difference im sorry i think a dog no matter what the training should be able to do sar if the dog passes that its not human or dog agressive.
i also had my male who was being trained for schutzhund had only bit the sleeve once but he wasent a sleeve driven dog he was very civil he ignored people could care less if they where around but the group felt that because he had bittin on a sleeve once he was not safe to use. half of this teams dogs didnt listen to their handlers they just did their own thing and the handler followed the footsteps or the flags. the one dog that did find me refuzed to come to me up the hill because he didnt want to walk up the hill.... are u kidding also their one certified tracking dog the woman didnt even know if he would find a person or lead her on a animal trail.... im sorry but thats worthless in all. dogs can be cross trained and dogs know the difference im sorry i think a dog no matter what the training should be able to do sar if the dog passes that its not human or dog agressive.
by Bob McKown on 28 June 2011 - 17:06
I hate to say this but most(there are a few) but most SAR people that i,ve meet are the most clueless when it comes to reading and understanding dog behavior and understand dog training even less. I see it more in local groups. It,s very trendy and clicky.
by Nancy on 28 June 2011 - 18:06
When you make that generalization about SAR teams you HAVE to realize the amount of "beer and testosterone" sport clubs ......
My introduction to SAR, I was starting a dog in schutzhund and was told "no". Leader pulled up his shirt and showed me a foot long scar on his belly were a "sport" dog, albiet improperly trained, unsuitable dog, ripped his stomach open. How do you argue with that? Just as there are poor SAR teams, there are also some pretty questionable folks doing bitework.
Particularly since there is very little in schutzhund (that cannot be got elsewhere such as advanced obedience and even AKC tracking) that will help a dog in its SAR career?
My introduction to SAR, I was starting a dog in schutzhund and was told "no". Leader pulled up his shirt and showed me a foot long scar on his belly were a "sport" dog, albiet improperly trained, unsuitable dog, ripped his stomach open. How do you argue with that? Just as there are poor SAR teams, there are also some pretty questionable folks doing bitework.
Particularly since there is very little in schutzhund (that cannot be got elsewhere such as advanced obedience and even AKC tracking) that will help a dog in its SAR career?
by Bob McKown on 28 June 2011 - 19:06
Maybe your"leader" fits the same bill. I stand by my opinion. Oh by the way Schutzhund and the "sport" are 2 different things. I got to set and listen to a group of SAR wanna be,s tell me how Schutzhund trained dogs can,t be SAR dogs because Schutzhund dogs are trained to bite on site... That was a hour of my life I,ll never get back.
"Just as there are poor SAR teams, there are also some pretty questionable folks doing bitework".
Bite work is not Schutzhund.
by k9neiko on 28 June 2011 - 19:06
As being a former k9 officer who is now in an SAR group I can honestly tell you my group takes it serious and knows dogs and how to read them. My group has had many live finds on land and in water, I now have the utmost respect for SAR. I also have the utmost respect for schutzhund and know the hard work involved in both. Please dont let a bad experience think all SAR groups or all SCH groups are the same. As they say there is one in every crowd.
My group does allow my sch 1 titled female to participate. Infact when we do demos I am always asked to bring her because she is well behaved around ALL people big or small and around ALL dogs.
by Mindhunt on 28 June 2011 - 20:06
The team I help out with allows protection trained dogs on the team as long as they pass the temperment testing and then are to be used on lead (long lines). This is just the way it is with the insurance company and attorney dictating the terms. The 2 handlers understand and neither one want all the work they have put into their dogs to be destroyed if a worse case scenerio occurs. These dogs are allowed because sometimes the search goal will involve the potential for danger due to criminals being invovled with the person going missing.
Unfortunately, I have seen some poorly trained dogs both in SAR and protection, I have seen the "flame-o's" (people) in both SAR and protection that give both a bad name, and I have seen some trainers that I wouldn't let train a dead chicken. There are people out there that just can't or won't accept that the dog they currently have is not suited to doing all the person wants (not pointing fingers or thinking of anyone in particular, just blanket comment on what I have personally witnessed).
I told one person whose dog didn't pass the temperment testing (he was pretty angry that his dog couldn't do both SAR and protection), I get the wish that all dogs are smart enough with the perfect temperment and with proper training can be the dog that can do it all. Too bad, genetics does not always cooperate and give us the smartest dogs with the best temperments possible of every breeding. Sometimes dogs, like people, have degrees of intelligence with strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Some dogs have temperments better suited to SAR, or protection, or herding, or a wonderful pet. His dog was great at protection, but crosstraining him into SAR was just not going to work with his dog, it's not that his dog was any less a great dog because he couldn't do both, his dog just happened to be better at protection than SAR and forcing his dog to try to do something that the dog was not suited for was wasting his dog's potential in the area it was good at and that is a terrible thing for the dog. He should be proud of his dog for what it can do well and not be angry because of what it can't.
Unfortunately, I have seen some poorly trained dogs both in SAR and protection, I have seen the "flame-o's" (people) in both SAR and protection that give both a bad name, and I have seen some trainers that I wouldn't let train a dead chicken. There are people out there that just can't or won't accept that the dog they currently have is not suited to doing all the person wants (not pointing fingers or thinking of anyone in particular, just blanket comment on what I have personally witnessed).
I told one person whose dog didn't pass the temperment testing (he was pretty angry that his dog couldn't do both SAR and protection), I get the wish that all dogs are smart enough with the perfect temperment and with proper training can be the dog that can do it all. Too bad, genetics does not always cooperate and give us the smartest dogs with the best temperments possible of every breeding. Sometimes dogs, like people, have degrees of intelligence with strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Some dogs have temperments better suited to SAR, or protection, or herding, or a wonderful pet. His dog was great at protection, but crosstraining him into SAR was just not going to work with his dog, it's not that his dog was any less a great dog because he couldn't do both, his dog just happened to be better at protection than SAR and forcing his dog to try to do something that the dog was not suited for was wasting his dog's potential in the area it was good at and that is a terrible thing for the dog. He should be proud of his dog for what it can do well and not be angry because of what it can't.
by Nancy on 28 June 2011 - 23:06
It takes a tremendous amount of work and then networking to field a solid SAR team. There is not one thing to prevent anyone who wants their dogs to do schutzhund to start their own team unless you live in a state where the laws prohibit it (and some do).
Besides since all the SAR teams are so crappy, I am sure you would be doing your community a service to provide a better alternative.
I don't see why people whine so much about it; these are not government funded organizations but private volunteer groups and as long as they are not violating any rules relative to nonprofits, they can run their organization as they see fit.
Besides since all the SAR teams are so crappy, I am sure you would be doing your community a service to provide a better alternative.
I don't see why people whine so much about it; these are not government funded organizations but private volunteer groups and as long as they are not violating any rules relative to nonprofits, they can run their organization as they see fit.
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