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by missbeeb on 31 January 2009 - 22:01
That's a "no" then Jemima... you're not going to help us? I ask, because you are less than precise... kind of like a politician lol.
by Wildmoor on 31 January 2009 - 22:01
There is no correlation with DM and the shape of the dog, I have so far not come across any WG dogs in the UK with DM only English line, although I do know of a WG line in Denmark with DM at the age of 11. There is now a genetic marker for this and a DNA test for it.
Maybe there were few returns because people were not contacted, I wasnt aware at the time like I am sure others werent.
What Data are you after?;
ED: very few English have their elbows score you get the occaisional 1 from English workline or Obed line score so it is difficult to compare.
The majority elbow scored are WG showline you get 2 or 3 a quarter with a grade on their elbows but most are 0 scored
ED and HD dont correlate with each other you can have a dog with 0:0 hips and bad elbows (like mine) but you can also have dogs with severe hd and clear elbows.
HD: most high and excessive scores come from English lines all type, most(98%) WG showline are under 24, with thousands under 10.
OCD shoulders etc I dont hear in the WG lines, I have had English showlines with it.
Heamangio all lines.
HC English showlines
Epilepsy predominately English show/work/pet lines only occaisionaly in German lines.
EPI predominately English
Skin problems all lines inbred with genetic bottlenecks no matter what line.
Maybe there were few returns because people were not contacted, I wasnt aware at the time like I am sure others werent.
What Data are you after?;
ED: very few English have their elbows score you get the occaisional 1 from English workline or Obed line score so it is difficult to compare.
The majority elbow scored are WG showline you get 2 or 3 a quarter with a grade on their elbows but most are 0 scored
ED and HD dont correlate with each other you can have a dog with 0:0 hips and bad elbows (like mine) but you can also have dogs with severe hd and clear elbows.
HD: most high and excessive scores come from English lines all type, most(98%) WG showline are under 24, with thousands under 10.
OCD shoulders etc I dont hear in the WG lines, I have had English showlines with it.
Heamangio all lines.
HC English showlines
Epilepsy predominately English show/work/pet lines only occaisionaly in German lines.
EPI predominately English
Skin problems all lines inbred with genetic bottlenecks no matter what line.
by pacosbear on 31 January 2009 - 22:01
Gustav,
Thank You - don't think we are on different levels at all, in my opinion - you have educated me for the better! Thank You
Liz
Thank You - don't think we are on different levels at all, in my opinion - you have educated me for the better! Thank You
Liz
by Sue B on 31 January 2009 - 22:01
Like a Lemming with a death wish I was completely unable to resist the compulsion to walk back to the edge and dive right back into this debate.
I concur with both Missbeed and Pacosbear in that mongrels are unlikely to exists in the numbers they used to if only due to the cheaper castration and spey services offered by vets these days (in some cases subsidised by charities) to low income families. The increase in dog catchers and fines for owners who allow their mutts to roam has also had an impact on the reduction of mongrels on the street and therefore reducing the mating of such non pedigree dogs to each other. All this factuality proves without doubt that as Pedigree dogs far outnumber that of Mongrels (the number of which are in existance nobody really knows) it doesnt take an Einstein to establish the obvious, that vets treat more Pedigree dogs than they do Mongrels is hardly a surprise !
Indeed, I can say without exception that whenever I have the need to visit the vet, for whatever reason, be it for hips xrays, boosters, Pet Passport or ill health, the amount of cats in the waiting room always far outnumber the dogs, but as I imagine the number of cats in the UK outnumber dogs, I am rather inclined to suggest the reason they are at the vets in larger numbers is due to that very fact than to now start to argue that since more cats are at the vets than dogs it must be that cats are less healthy than dogs.. But then I am a reasonable person , not intending to produce an unbalanced TV programme based on the ownership of Cat verses Dog. (TIC)
In addition, of the dogs I meet at my vets the majority are West Highlands, perhaps we have a spate of Westies breeders or enthusiast owners in my area, I certainly dont immediately assume Westies are necessarily less healthy than any other Pedigree breed of dog just because I see more of them in the vets surgery than others breeds. Of the rest Labs come in second, I have seen a couple of ridgebacks, many border collies, lots of poodles mainly minitures, some dobes and rotts but strangely enough I cannot remember the last time I ever saw a Mongrel, so perhaps they never do get ill, or perhaps they never go when I am there, or since they rarely (if ever) cost the owner any money at all to buy them, they dont hold the same value to their owners as does the Pedigree the owner has had to spend his hard earned cash to acquire, so perhaps when they get older it is easier for the owner to just acquire a newer model than to spend cash on the old one, with the opposite applying to the owner of the Pedigree.
To the true dog lover I realise how harsh that last sentance sounds, but sadly that often is the harsh reality in the life of the Mongrel.
Regards
Sue B
I concur with both Missbeed and Pacosbear in that mongrels are unlikely to exists in the numbers they used to if only due to the cheaper castration and spey services offered by vets these days (in some cases subsidised by charities) to low income families. The increase in dog catchers and fines for owners who allow their mutts to roam has also had an impact on the reduction of mongrels on the street and therefore reducing the mating of such non pedigree dogs to each other. All this factuality proves without doubt that as Pedigree dogs far outnumber that of Mongrels (the number of which are in existance nobody really knows) it doesnt take an Einstein to establish the obvious, that vets treat more Pedigree dogs than they do Mongrels is hardly a surprise !
Indeed, I can say without exception that whenever I have the need to visit the vet, for whatever reason, be it for hips xrays, boosters, Pet Passport or ill health, the amount of cats in the waiting room always far outnumber the dogs, but as I imagine the number of cats in the UK outnumber dogs, I am rather inclined to suggest the reason they are at the vets in larger numbers is due to that very fact than to now start to argue that since more cats are at the vets than dogs it must be that cats are less healthy than dogs.. But then I am a reasonable person , not intending to produce an unbalanced TV programme based on the ownership of Cat verses Dog. (TIC)
In addition, of the dogs I meet at my vets the majority are West Highlands, perhaps we have a spate of Westies breeders or enthusiast owners in my area, I certainly dont immediately assume Westies are necessarily less healthy than any other Pedigree breed of dog just because I see more of them in the vets surgery than others breeds. Of the rest Labs come in second, I have seen a couple of ridgebacks, many border collies, lots of poodles mainly minitures, some dobes and rotts but strangely enough I cannot remember the last time I ever saw a Mongrel, so perhaps they never do get ill, or perhaps they never go when I am there, or since they rarely (if ever) cost the owner any money at all to buy them, they dont hold the same value to their owners as does the Pedigree the owner has had to spend his hard earned cash to acquire, so perhaps when they get older it is easier for the owner to just acquire a newer model than to spend cash on the old one, with the opposite applying to the owner of the Pedigree.
To the true dog lover I realise how harsh that last sentance sounds, but sadly that often is the harsh reality in the life of the Mongrel.
Regards
Sue B
by Wildmoor on 31 January 2009 - 23:01
Going back to Mongrels as you cited from other countries I will also;
Location A
Location B
As you can see it is not necessarily whether the dog is a mongrel or purebred it is enviromental and social reasons ie Deprivation that impacts greatly on life expectancy
Location A
| Breed | Number | Expectation of life at age 10 | Expection of life at age 1 |
| All Dogs | 3032 | 8.9 | 9.1 |
| Purebred | 1826 | 8.3 | 8.8 |
| Mongrels | 963 | 9.8 | 9.6 |
Location B
| Breed | Number | Expectation of life at age 10 | Expectation of life at age 1 |
| All Dogs | 1883 | 7.7 | 7.9 |
| Purebred | 1003 | 7.9 | 8.1 |
| Mongrels | 745 | 7.9 | 7.8 |
As you can see it is not necessarily whether the dog is a mongrel or purebred it is enviromental and social reasons ie Deprivation that impacts greatly on life expectancy
by Sue B on 31 January 2009 - 23:01
8oHNQp epibbhnxtyxy, [url=http://mzhhqdqwtnuk.com/]mzhhqdqwtnuk[/url], [link=http://vrulzkhbrmaf.com/]vrulzkhbrmaf[/link], http://uzvupkdutgda.com/
by pacosbear on 31 January 2009 - 23:01
JH
Are you going to help? Are you aware of the GSD specific issues - english vs german etc I was alarmed to note that you commented
"I don't think Alsatians are particularly true to the original either - but they are closer phenotypically, and less extreme in terms of angulation. " - on what scientific, factual and health basis is this??
As a luddite I wouldn't know about where you would find the breed data - the KC perhaps (lol!) and online resources for any breed of puppy is scarse......
I can not comment on the health survey - know nowt about it and nor would Joe Public!
And just as your films are produced on a scienfic basis how do you know that the GSDs in the film are not perfectly healthy hip scored and fully health tested dogs free from conditions such as CDRM, HD, epilepsy and skin disorders? Just interested to know how you or I are able to make judgements on the movement of a dog without knowing it's fully health history?? And how once you present this in the public domain you can assure that joe public are aware of all the health tests that are performed - once again the issue of balance and unbiased raises it head!
Sorry gustav!
Liz
Are you going to help? Are you aware of the GSD specific issues - english vs german etc I was alarmed to note that you commented
"I don't think Alsatians are particularly true to the original either - but they are closer phenotypically, and less extreme in terms of angulation. " - on what scientific, factual and health basis is this??
As a luddite I wouldn't know about where you would find the breed data - the KC perhaps (lol!) and online resources for any breed of puppy is scarse......
I can not comment on the health survey - know nowt about it and nor would Joe Public!
And just as your films are produced on a scienfic basis how do you know that the GSDs in the film are not perfectly healthy hip scored and fully health tested dogs free from conditions such as CDRM, HD, epilepsy and skin disorders? Just interested to know how you or I are able to make judgements on the movement of a dog without knowing it's fully health history?? And how once you present this in the public domain you can assure that joe public are aware of all the health tests that are performed - once again the issue of balance and unbiased raises it head!
Sorry gustav!
Liz
by beetree on 31 January 2009 - 23:01
JH,
So does this mean there is a sequel coming up, still in production? Will it air on BBC America? I can understand why Sue B takes this so personnally, but I too have had questions, as a plain "Jane Doe." I have a British friend this side of the pond with Irish Wolfhounds whose breeder faces stillborn litters, caesarian births only, and out of a kind of lack of choices bred the daughter to the father to get a live litter. That to me is a sorry state of affairs. Seems to me you heard this scenario with other breeds. Does the second half of your documentary have something with the hope of progress?
So does this mean there is a sequel coming up, still in production? Will it air on BBC America? I can understand why Sue B takes this so personnally, but I too have had questions, as a plain "Jane Doe." I have a British friend this side of the pond with Irish Wolfhounds whose breeder faces stillborn litters, caesarian births only, and out of a kind of lack of choices bred the daughter to the father to get a live litter. That to me is a sorry state of affairs. Seems to me you heard this scenario with other breeds. Does the second half of your documentary have something with the hope of progress?
by georgehopwood on 31 January 2009 - 23:01
ok this is my fault again lol, I posted the link about the extended footage of the GSD, if you google JH name on youtube there is also lots of unseen footage of other pedigrees, she has not singled out the gsd, but imo lol and the counts for nothing on this board
by pacosbear on 31 January 2009 - 23:01
JH
As it is a complex issue and covers many breeds with many genetic vices in order to explore all the options effectively may I suggest rather than produce another one off documentary - where you can't possibly address all the many and varied issues that instead you produce a 'series'. To allow for a proper and scientific presentation of the health issues based on facts and then maybe each week how those 'affected' breeds are affected, the problems that causes the breed and the way in which breeders, breed clubs and the kc are addressing the issues ( or not in some instances). Maybe a sky tv channel dedicated to dogs ... just an idea, might even persuade me to purchase sky - and you'd be minted!
Liz
As it is a complex issue and covers many breeds with many genetic vices in order to explore all the options effectively may I suggest rather than produce another one off documentary - where you can't possibly address all the many and varied issues that instead you produce a 'series'. To allow for a proper and scientific presentation of the health issues based on facts and then maybe each week how those 'affected' breeds are affected, the problems that causes the breed and the way in which breeders, breed clubs and the kc are addressing the issues ( or not in some instances). Maybe a sky tv channel dedicated to dogs ... just an idea, might even persuade me to purchase sky - and you'd be minted!
Liz
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