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by Sunsilver on 18 July 2011 - 20:07
My friend was taking her young male dog to puppy classes at a well known dog kennel near Toronto. There was this one dog who would fixate on other dogs, then suddenly lunge at them. Nero got so wary of this dog that he would tense up every time it came into the class.
Pretty soon he was lunging back, then he was doing it with other large dogs. As his owner is under 5 ft. tall, and he was around 100 lbs., this was a real problem for her. She wishes now that she had complained, and either had this dog removed from the class, or removed Nero from the class.
Pretty soon he was lunging back, then he was doing it with other large dogs. As his owner is under 5 ft. tall, and he was around 100 lbs., this was a real problem for her. She wishes now that she had complained, and either had this dog removed from the class, or removed Nero from the class.
by Ruger1 on 18 July 2011 - 21:07
To sum it up, there are lots of different trainers and training facilities available. Trainers and training facilities who are willing to work with aggression problems are certainly needed... My dog was the aggressor in the class, so I am sure my prospective is different ....
The fact that your trainer is willing to work with this aggressive dog is super great. It will probably result in great joy for the dog and his family....This situation could result in the rest of the class learning how to control their own dogs ; keeping them focused on their handlers...
However, if it is not working for you, and you are uncomfortable you should find a different group to train with....It is important to have full confidence in your trainers ability to keep you and your dog safe while participating in class. If you doubt your trainers judgement/capability I would also find a new trainer.... JMO....: )
Deanna...: )
The fact that your trainer is willing to work with this aggressive dog is super great. It will probably result in great joy for the dog and his family....This situation could result in the rest of the class learning how to control their own dogs ; keeping them focused on their handlers...
However, if it is not working for you, and you are uncomfortable you should find a different group to train with....It is important to have full confidence in your trainers ability to keep you and your dog safe while participating in class. If you doubt your trainers judgement/capability I would also find a new trainer.... JMO....: )
Deanna...: )
by steve1 on 19 July 2011 - 10:07
Deanna
So what you are saying is that the rest of the class has to put up with one aggressive Dog or find somewhere else to train, How anyone can think that way is beyond me. It is up to the Owner to control his Dog with the help of the Trainer but NOT at the expense of other Handlers and Dogs
As for not complaining i would certainly tell the Trainer what i thought and the Owner of the Dog first.
If you or anyone else think what you say is right then there is no hope for the rest of us
Your aggressive Dog should have been taken in hand by you at an early age there is NO bloody excuse for a dog being aggressive if it is handled right from a Pup that to me means your Dog was the boss of you only difference was he could not put the Collar and Leash around your neck to take you for a walk. You forget in these classes you have young and old handlers inexperienced and so are there dogs that is the reason they go to these classes in the first place. The last thing you want is for a young dog to be attacked by an aggressive Dog the Onus is not on the others causing no problems but the Owner of the Aggressive dog is at fault plus the trainer if he allows it to go on If you can call him a Dog trainer if he lets that happen, Over here you would be taken well away from the rest and given tuition, You would not stay in the group and disrupt it, IT is not the Dogs that need tuition it is the handlers of such dogs in these cases
Steve1
So what you are saying is that the rest of the class has to put up with one aggressive Dog or find somewhere else to train, How anyone can think that way is beyond me. It is up to the Owner to control his Dog with the help of the Trainer but NOT at the expense of other Handlers and Dogs
As for not complaining i would certainly tell the Trainer what i thought and the Owner of the Dog first.
If you or anyone else think what you say is right then there is no hope for the rest of us
Your aggressive Dog should have been taken in hand by you at an early age there is NO bloody excuse for a dog being aggressive if it is handled right from a Pup that to me means your Dog was the boss of you only difference was he could not put the Collar and Leash around your neck to take you for a walk. You forget in these classes you have young and old handlers inexperienced and so are there dogs that is the reason they go to these classes in the first place. The last thing you want is for a young dog to be attacked by an aggressive Dog the Onus is not on the others causing no problems but the Owner of the Aggressive dog is at fault plus the trainer if he allows it to go on If you can call him a Dog trainer if he lets that happen, Over here you would be taken well away from the rest and given tuition, You would not stay in the group and disrupt it, IT is not the Dogs that need tuition it is the handlers of such dogs in these cases
Steve1
by Ruger1 on 19 July 2011 - 16:07
Steve...: )
What I am saying is that some trainers specialize in behavior problems and open their classes up to dogs with behavior and/or socialization issues. It sounds like the OP's trainer is one on these types of trainers because he is allowing this dog to attend the class. Other trainers will work with problem dogs/handlers privately and some not at all....
IMO regardless of how the aggression issue started, it needs fixed and classes that will incorporate these dog are needed....It could be that this particular trainer caters to problem behavior and feels it is appropriate to incorporate these dogs in a group setting....
If allowing the aggressive dog in class makes the other handlers uncomfortable they should find another training group ( it would probably be appropriate to receive a refund )....If I understood the OP correctly, there are only two other handlers/dogs in the class and the aggressive dog is a smaller type dog. I does not sound that anyone is in harms way IMO...
Yes Steve, you are 100% when you said, " IT is not the Dogs that need tuition it is the handlers of such dogs in these cases".....I actually agree with most of what you posted. I just believe there is a need for trainers that will incorporate these handlers/dogs into classes....
Deanna...: )
by VonIsengard on 19 July 2011 - 16:07
Really, Steve? Deanna should have taken her dog in hand as a pup? Well, sure, problems are easier to resolve when a dog is young, but I don't think you understand what really went on with her dog.
Deanna wanted a pet, which I'm sure she made clear when she bought the dog. She was sold a pushy, domineering male. Not ideal, but not the end of the world, with good training, except when she tried to take Prince to training, (did you miss the part where she said they worked with him since he was 9 weeks old?!) she got kicked out by a sissy "dog trainer" who labeled her dog as dangerous because they lacked the experience, the brains, the testicular fortitude to deal with a dog like Prince and god forbid they admit when they are in over their head, oh no, most of these types think they know it all. It must be the dog's problem, not theirs.
So where did she turn? This message board, where she received weeks of horrible advice and people ripping apart her, her dog, her dog's breeder, her dog's father, you name it, while I sat behind my monitor and cringed until I couldn't take it anymore. Prince was only 9 months old when he came into my hands, still a puppy. He could have been straightened out faster and easier a bit younger, but I guarantee you Deanna was not the only person out there with too little access to decent trainers and too much access to online "experts".
When crappy dog trainers mislead an owner and misread a dog, they often create problems even worse than an untrained owner will.
To Laura, when you discussed this issue, did anyone bring up muzzling the dog? To tell you to not look at the dog and keep distance is ridiculous, it won't help your dog at all and it definitely won't help the aggressive dog if they are going to tiptoe around his issues. What happens when someone's dog breaks a stay and you have to get it, adn the dog is now close the aggressor? A muzzle is a perfectly fair compromise. The dog cannot harm any person or dog, and everyone stays in class.
Deanna wanted a pet, which I'm sure she made clear when she bought the dog. She was sold a pushy, domineering male. Not ideal, but not the end of the world, with good training, except when she tried to take Prince to training, (did you miss the part where she said they worked with him since he was 9 weeks old?!) she got kicked out by a sissy "dog trainer" who labeled her dog as dangerous because they lacked the experience, the brains, the testicular fortitude to deal with a dog like Prince and god forbid they admit when they are in over their head, oh no, most of these types think they know it all. It must be the dog's problem, not theirs.
So where did she turn? This message board, where she received weeks of horrible advice and people ripping apart her, her dog, her dog's breeder, her dog's father, you name it, while I sat behind my monitor and cringed until I couldn't take it anymore. Prince was only 9 months old when he came into my hands, still a puppy. He could have been straightened out faster and easier a bit younger, but I guarantee you Deanna was not the only person out there with too little access to decent trainers and too much access to online "experts".
When crappy dog trainers mislead an owner and misread a dog, they often create problems even worse than an untrained owner will.
To Laura, when you discussed this issue, did anyone bring up muzzling the dog? To tell you to not look at the dog and keep distance is ridiculous, it won't help your dog at all and it definitely won't help the aggressive dog if they are going to tiptoe around his issues. What happens when someone's dog breaks a stay and you have to get it, adn the dog is now close the aggressor? A muzzle is a perfectly fair compromise. The dog cannot harm any person or dog, and everyone stays in class.
by steve1 on 19 July 2011 - 16:07
Everyone to there own but there should be special classes for such problem dogs not an ordinary class,
It is like saying that your kid and most other kids are good children in the classroom but there is a problem child who upsets and stops the good Kids working, What you are saying is that if the parents of the good kids who present no problems do not like the upsets the problem kid causes then it is they the good working Kids who must find another School, Not the Problem Child just the same as the problem Dog
Sorry' , but that does not add up for me
Yes, i think you have some problems getting things in the right prospective
When i was in the Forces many years ago we had a Guy like this Problem Dog. He caused a lot of problems Picking on the younger and the smaller Guys not knocking them about i was one of them at the time.
What were we supposed to do ask for a transfer for getting on with the other Guys and doing our work, Not damn likely, it was the problem Guy who had to go, You simply cannot work as a team when you get one animal or person causing problems for the rest it has never happened yet
This was at the start of the time i had there so all was new to all the Guys, Later on there was never such problems even with different Nationalities we could not afford to worry about those things we had enough to watch out for, Later on with a 6 or 8 man team we got on just fine like brothers everyone for everyone else thats the way to work .
and that is exactly the same on a training field with dogs Everyone should work for each other, there is no one who can do it on his or hers own
Steve1
It is like saying that your kid and most other kids are good children in the classroom but there is a problem child who upsets and stops the good Kids working, What you are saying is that if the parents of the good kids who present no problems do not like the upsets the problem kid causes then it is they the good working Kids who must find another School, Not the Problem Child just the same as the problem Dog
Sorry' , but that does not add up for me
Yes, i think you have some problems getting things in the right prospective
When i was in the Forces many years ago we had a Guy like this Problem Dog. He caused a lot of problems Picking on the younger and the smaller Guys not knocking them about i was one of them at the time.
What were we supposed to do ask for a transfer for getting on with the other Guys and doing our work, Not damn likely, it was the problem Guy who had to go, You simply cannot work as a team when you get one animal or person causing problems for the rest it has never happened yet
This was at the start of the time i had there so all was new to all the Guys, Later on there was never such problems even with different Nationalities we could not afford to worry about those things we had enough to watch out for, Later on with a 6 or 8 man team we got on just fine like brothers everyone for everyone else thats the way to work .
and that is exactly the same on a training field with dogs Everyone should work for each other, there is no one who can do it on his or hers own
Steve1
by VonIsengard on 19 July 2011 - 17:07
Steve, the "problem child" MUST learn to behave themselves if they want to live a successful life, and so must the "good children" learn to correctly behave when faced with such distraction. It's the way of the world.
I have NO problems with perspective here. If I have a sport question I will come and ask people like you who have a great deal of sport experience. This is NOT to be confused with retraining dogs with problems- that, my friend, is my area of expertise. I hope one day you take a trip to the states, I invite you to come watch my class, and see how I run an efficient class with dogs of all personalities and issues working politely together.
I have NO problems with perspective here. If I have a sport question I will come and ask people like you who have a great deal of sport experience. This is NOT to be confused with retraining dogs with problems- that, my friend, is my area of expertise. I hope one day you take a trip to the states, I invite you to come watch my class, and see how I run an efficient class with dogs of all personalities and issues working politely together.
by steve1 on 19 July 2011 - 18:07
I do not read every thread on this Forum so what you are saying is not relevant.
I am referring to this thread not any other thread, You do not put a problem child in a class of well behaved Children for that problem child to disrupt the whole class, No more than you put a dog which is a biter in a class of well behaved Dogs to cause an upset, YOU tell me why this is necessary thing to do to put a biter in a well behaved class of dogs what are you trying to prove, For me i have handled dogs of all breeds for over 60 years Tough Dogs, soft Dogs, Biters as well but i never took a Biter into a class of dogs which were okay that is stupid but it seems you like to prove a point by doing this watch out you may get your fingers burnt one day if not with a dog then an owner of one if things go wrong and you will only have yourself to blame
There are enough problems if just one dog is that way inclined, What you should do as you think that way is to use only your own dogs in the class with a Biter, not other peoples who are paying for there dogs to become good sociable trained dogs so to speak, use only your own dogs to train with a biter not other peoples dogs DO you do that i think not
I do not need to come over to see you in the USA we have some of the Top Trainers and Dog people over here in Belgium, and if you came over here talking and acting the way you speak on here you would be soon back on a plane they would not tolerate the way you think
You have outlined what you think is right i think differently. you like to prove a point at possibly the expense of another Dog or handler getting bitten by a biter by letting them work in the same group, thats not my way of teaching dogs or people how to handle there dog,
In Dog training all must be 'CALM' if there is any tention or upset at all from Dog or Handlers then it cannot work, so Calm is the priority in training any DOG or HANDLER, You cannot get that with a Biter in a class But you think you can. My last i have said my bit and i stick to it as most on here would who understand Dogs
Steve1
I am referring to this thread not any other thread, You do not put a problem child in a class of well behaved Children for that problem child to disrupt the whole class, No more than you put a dog which is a biter in a class of well behaved Dogs to cause an upset, YOU tell me why this is necessary thing to do to put a biter in a well behaved class of dogs what are you trying to prove, For me i have handled dogs of all breeds for over 60 years Tough Dogs, soft Dogs, Biters as well but i never took a Biter into a class of dogs which were okay that is stupid but it seems you like to prove a point by doing this watch out you may get your fingers burnt one day if not with a dog then an owner of one if things go wrong and you will only have yourself to blame
There are enough problems if just one dog is that way inclined, What you should do as you think that way is to use only your own dogs in the class with a Biter, not other peoples who are paying for there dogs to become good sociable trained dogs so to speak, use only your own dogs to train with a biter not other peoples dogs DO you do that i think not
I do not need to come over to see you in the USA we have some of the Top Trainers and Dog people over here in Belgium, and if you came over here talking and acting the way you speak on here you would be soon back on a plane they would not tolerate the way you think
You have outlined what you think is right i think differently. you like to prove a point at possibly the expense of another Dog or handler getting bitten by a biter by letting them work in the same group, thats not my way of teaching dogs or people how to handle there dog,
In Dog training all must be 'CALM' if there is any tention or upset at all from Dog or Handlers then it cannot work, so Calm is the priority in training any DOG or HANDLER, You cannot get that with a Biter in a class But you think you can. My last i have said my bit and i stick to it as most on here would who understand Dogs
Steve1
by laura271 on 19 July 2011 - 19:07
I see both Steve1 and VonIsengard's perspectives- a group class is no place for a canine/human aggressive dog versus opportunity for Senta and I to train with distractions. I originally posted this thread to help me think through my situation- I cringe a bit when I read my posts here- I come across as a bit of hand wringing whiner. My concern is not getting bit myself (I'll survive.)- it's the possibility that Senta's temperament will get damaged as a few others have commented on this thread with their own experiences. I'm well aware of Senta's flaws (too tall and has a white patch on her chest, etc., etc.) but she has a temperament that I'm really proud of.
I didn't ask the trainer to muzzle the biter- there wasn't any point. He genuinely doesn't see the dog as a threat to the class' well-being. There was a question about the number of people in my class - 3 regulars (including me + the biter's owner) and 3 sporadic attenders. I want to note that I really respect the trainer - he definitely would have helped Deanna with Prince. I just disagree that the biter is ready for a group obedience class at this time.
Whether or not we continue in the class (as my husband prefers and/or just plain lack of other trainers in my area), I thank everyone for taking the time to comment on this thread.
Laura
I didn't ask the trainer to muzzle the biter- there wasn't any point. He genuinely doesn't see the dog as a threat to the class' well-being. There was a question about the number of people in my class - 3 regulars (including me + the biter's owner) and 3 sporadic attenders. I want to note that I really respect the trainer - he definitely would have helped Deanna with Prince. I just disagree that the biter is ready for a group obedience class at this time.
Whether or not we continue in the class (as my husband prefers and/or just plain lack of other trainers in my area), I thank everyone for taking the time to comment on this thread.
Laura
by VonIsengard on 19 July 2011 - 21:07
Laura, a trainer should always respect their clents even if they disagree, and safety is of course paramount. I'm sorry to hear your trainer brushed off what to me sound like valid concerns. Steve, I think you take from my posts only what you want. I have stated, numerous times, that a dog who would bite should be muzzled for the safety of all and for the advancement of the dog. I'm not saying a man eating land shark should be cut loose in a puppy class, for god's sake.
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