Best e-collar for training?

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by senta on 27 November 2007 - 19:11

Nancy: I don¿t think that any protection has something to do with hunting. Protection is a form of obedience highest level - so I think and learned. The dog has not to decide hisself what is good or what is bad. I think that I have to decide for the dog and give him the learned command what he has to do. Hunting a deer and protection/rescue people is so different like sun and moon. It has nothing to do with the other. There are special dogs for hunting in the breed - but not the gsd. A gsd who has to much hunting-blood you cannot train or only very hard. Perhaps you need that¿s why the e-collar. The dog will decide all what he will do ( in own decision ) - only with his instinct. His choice will be guided by his instinct, not every time logical. A dog never decides like human - he is following his natural dog-drive. Sometimes that isn¿t enough. We can use a lot of his instinct - in rescue, in trailing, search and other things, but not in all situations of normal life. My dog has only to protect me - if I give him the command - not if he want it. It could be false what he is feeling. Think about the lot of people who are not really sympathetic - should my dog bites them all ? I think not. I have my brain for to think about what would be the best to do. My dog would do all with his instinct and only with his instinct. And that could be false. His instinct works alone - without me and my education. If there is a really hard situation, a dangerous threat for my life - he will do what is to do. That he has not to learn. The e-collar will stop the dog hard - but may be - in an erroneous situation. And I cannot believe that a dog, educated with e-collar, is more safe than a dog with a deep trust to his owner.

by Nancy on 27 November 2007 - 19:11

Senta, I don't know how you though that i implied protection and hunting were at ALL related. All of shutzhund is obedience work. I am not even convinced a shutzhund trained dog would really protect anyone in a real fight unless that dog was of the right temperament. IPO, Ring, those are perhaps different matters. But I do none of that so that is the limit of my knowledge on THAT topic.

I tried to say that Search and Rescue is a form of hunting only for a human "prey". In your mind it appears a German Shepherd's ONLY utility is for protection, even though they had other uses early in the breed. It requires a true partnership and not a robotic obedience dog. It is a combination of the eyes and intellect of the human and the instinctive abilities of the dog along with training to ensure the handler can control the dog for safety and for appropriate coverage as well as for communication (a definitive alert for an offlead dog).

If you have no experience with LOW STIM ecollar and MODERN training methods with them and think the only way to use it is to give the dog a harsh and painful shock, then you really have no way to judge how it impacts the human-dog connection.

You mentioned earlier that you thought the people who need an ecollar should take it for themselves.

Many of us have put the collar on our own necks so we could feel what the dog gets. I would not dare to do that with a pinch or a slip collar (though I have on my leg, not my neck)

by harddawg on 27 November 2007 - 20:11

"If you have no experience with LOW STIM ecollar and MODERN training methods with them and think the only way to use it is to give the dog a harsh and painful shock, then you really have no way to judge how it impacts the human-dog connection."

Exactly. The stimulation we give can hardly be considered a harsh and painful shock. It's alot more like a series of finger taps on the neck saying "hello, pay attention". I've tried it on my neck and I can say I've felt something similar before. I think it was an electronic muscle stimulator. You surely know it's there but it's far from pain.

by senta on 27 November 2007 - 21:11

@Nancy: Sorry, I think my english is too bad for to say what I mean. I notice a lot misunderstanding. Before there will come more misunderstandings I decide to end my articles. I think in some things we agree, in somethings not. The topic is too comprehensive and too across-the-different-boards for to split it in this or that. My dogs are private and really not like "robotic obedience dog". My methods are working without e-collars, and I love that so as it is. I made SchH without e-collar - why not - my gsd¿s likes it too because their breed need that working. And I use other stimulations for to concentrate them to that what they should do. I live with my dogs 24 hours a day together without kennel or something like that. Please understand me right... thank you.

by harddawg on 27 November 2007 - 21:11

By the way Senta, great website and beautiful photos.

Very pretty showline dogs. Looks like you enjoy what you do, the way you do it. If it works for you, best of luck.

Keep enjoying your dogs, looks like you are good to them.

by Skitch on 27 November 2007 - 21:11

I like the dogtra e-collar best, but take a class on how to use it before you start, and use it as a last resort.

by Nancy on 27 November 2007 - 21:11

Yes, we can agree to disagree. I, too, live with my dogs in the house and they are part of my family and all of the search training is strictly motivational. We differ on the use of the ecollar.

To close - for the OP. The www.loucastle.com has a nice section called "Selecting an eCollar" that discusses the differences between the two major brands - Tritronics and Dogtra. and many nice articles as does www.dobbsdogs.com

The other major training approach is Fred Hassen, www.sitmeanssit.com I am not as familair with his methods as with Lou, but I think it is more compulsion.

Those of our team dogs who have had ecollars for occassional fixes don't wear them all the time though I know a lot of users and most instructors are proponents of this approach. No judgement on my part. I am still undecided on that one. When you do get a collar you do need to be aware that the way they are worn requires them to be rotated so as not to cause contact sores from the constant pressure.

by Louise M. Penery on 27 November 2007 - 21:11

By the way Senta, great website and beautiful photos: http://www.vom-kalten-brook.com/Export4.htm

rocket, to answer your initial query regarding e-collars, I would recommend the Dogtra 1700 NCP. http://www.dobbsdogs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_17_22&products_id=661&zenid=0b3cfed4504656d49c0ca8673e27ccc3

This is esentially and upgrade of the 1200 NCP. I addition to a rheostat and 100 levels of intensity, the new model also boasts an LCD readout and a battery life indicator.

Here is one of my poor boys being "abaused" by the 1200 NCP:

by senta on 27 November 2007 - 22:11

@harddawg. thank you. You are right - I enjoy my dogs - daily.

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