Why Do People Breed GSD's W No Titles And KkLs????

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by bgstout on 14 June 2009 - 14:06

KCzaja: What's your point? The thread was Why do people bred without KKL's and titles? Your dogs were titled and Koer. I agree it cost money for vet, gas to club and trials, dog food etc. I didn't get into dogsport to make a profit, I enjoy the time spent training and trialing my dog plus the comraderier of my club members.

by steve1 on 14 June 2009 - 15:06

bgstout
I agree with the meeting and general training at the clubs, My other sport is Long Distance Pigeon Racing and during the months April to beginning of August it is hectic not only working with the pigeons training racing but planning the pairing up for certain pairs for certain timed races, conditioning etc does take a toll on my old brain now, but to just get away to the dog club for training three times a week takes the pressure off the pigeon sport, and i forget the pigeons completly whist i am training with the Dogs and the Guys, to me it is a reward for my work in the pigeon sport for during the week i answer questions from fanciers in the UK, Australia, the USA etc they ask for advice when they have a problem and it is a pleasure to help these Guys out and when it comes good for them i am happy, but it is the Dogs which help me stay focused and i think without them to take off the pressure i would consider giving up the pigeon sport after some 58 years
For sure the Pups are a great way of relaxing
Steve

by Rik on 14 June 2009 - 18:06

I'm a noob, so please feel free to correct if my understanding is faulty.

Basically, in the beginning, Max von Stephanitz created the GSD, founded the SV and established standards/proofing's that he felt would keep his creation moving in a positive direction.

Many decades later, we are hearing from different sides of what has become of his dream.

One very interesting view comes from a top breeder of excellent working lines, that actually go out and work. This breeder's opinion is that the minimum standards as set forth from the SV should be adhered to.

Another very successful breeder of S/L also feels that it is important to adhere to these guidelines in order that the breed should continue to move in a positive direction.

Then there is always the view from the "supplier to the masses", who feel that they should not have to meet any kind of standards/proofing/ because the world is wrong. And besides, it is inconvenient and expensive to meet those standards and you are getting the same pup for 1/3 the price. Well, if you look a couple generations back, you will see it is the same .

As always,
In a state of confusion

Rik

by Gustav on 14 June 2009 - 18:06

Good breeding is not about Titles and KKL, good breeding is about KNOWLEDGE! I know breeders who only breed titled and Korklassed dogs who produce excellent dogs and they are almost universally very knowledgable about the dogs and the lines they are using. I know people who are breeding titled and korklassed dogs, who couldn't tell anything about the parents of either of their dogs, and a lot of them produce JUNK! I know people who breed untitled dogs that are very knowledgeable about their dogs and their lines and work in police, SDA, PSA, SAR, etc and have produced many many dogs that are police/Sport/SAR/etc. ...And I know many people who breed untitled dogs that haven't a clue about temperament, hips, or working ability, and certainly the lines...and they usually produce below standard dogs. So in conclusion, knowledge is much more important than titles or KKL, in the quest to produce top dogs. If you are truly knowledgable about the breed and lines and their traits, you can be a very successful breeder in my opinion. JMO

by bgstout on 15 June 2009 - 02:06

Gustav I agree, but 99 % of the people breeding untitled dogs do not have any knowledge.

by Gustav on 15 June 2009 - 02:06

And the unknowledgable people shouldn't breed....regardless....we agree!

by darylehret on 15 June 2009 - 06:06

And the people who've explained that they don't have the TIME to train dogs, could perhaps explain then how time is found to spend with each litter, conversing with puppy buyers, posting on forums etc. My reasoning is about the same as Gustav's is, but prefer the better intentions of following SV standards. I call into the question the idea that a SchH or herding title should be considered tests of breedworthiness at all, but can be a good indication that the handler has spent significant time with their dogs, to have better insight of what they will bring to a breeding. But on the other hand, I also don't consider that breeding with titles is necessarily an entitlement to breed.

by steve1 on 15 June 2009 - 08:06

As i said for myself No dog should be bred from regardless of its Lineage unless it has been Hip and Elbow scored certified for Breeding, this is above all other bits for me including titles,
But if a dog has it all ,Korclassed Titles top Hips and Elbows i would take this dog above one who has nothing against its portfolio,so all these factors mean quite a lot certainly when put into one package
Talking about Lineage my Pup coming in three weeks has that in abundance, Her Sire is 1st Selection for Belgium in the coming WUSV, his Sire is twice WUSV champion and 4 times Belgian Champion, his Sire is WUSV Champion, and that dogs G.Sire was WUSV Champion, the Pups Dam is a proven breeder of Good Dogs and ScHh3 plus her G.Sire was WUSV champion, Looks good on Paper and it is,
But it will not make the Pup a Champion Firstly its Hips and Elbows are Priorty when the time comes, during that time i will know if it will make the grade in the SCHh Sport, so a lot of ifs and buts with a Pup even of this breeding,
Who knows i may have a Champion in the making, but also may have an ordinary Dog who will never reach the heights in the sport we interested people have, But whatever it turns out will be she will never leave here and will be thought of just the same however she turns out

Steve

by Uber Land on 15 June 2009 - 21:06

I asked a question earlier that didn't get answered.

the "sport" of schutzhund was developed to maintain a level of working ability and proper temperment in the breed. It was a test to show your dog had proper drives and temperment. Explain to me why, if these titles were soo important to the welfare and future of this breed, why then have we seen such decline in proper working ability and temperment in the breed today? this breed wasn't the best at everything, but it was a breed who could do anything. it is not like that now.

some people will say, "Oh, it is the people who breed untitled dogs that has caused this decline." Others might say it is from the showline people because they put beauty as a higher importance than they do working ability. and still another group might tell you it is the people who are only concerned with points, and not the total package.

the system we have now is flawed. schutzhund is no longer a test of a dogs working ability, but it has turned into a thing for ego's and people who want the spotlight. its no longer about the dogs, but personal gain. This is just my opinion.

titling of breeding stock means nothing if you are still producing weak minded dogs who lack the courage to engage a helper, who are not able to perform real life jobs such as SAR, herding, police or therapy work.

titles mean nothing if you have dogs so prey driven and energy levels are so high that they can not be trusted around smaller animals or livestock(what good is a herding dog that kills the very animals it is supposed to protect and move) . they mean nothing if the dogs can not be brought into the home and lived with.

and just because a breeder has titled stock does not mean they know squat about the breed. they can have many litters a year out of titled stock and still not be able to pick out a pup with proper drives and temperment.

and just because someone chooses not to title their dogs, for what ever reason, doesn't make them a poor breeder with no knowledge of the breed.

by bgstout on 15 June 2009 - 22:06

Uber land,

How does a dog that does not engage the helper pass a trial to earn a title? I have not seen a decline in the working dog, you just have to look harder, because of all the crap the unknowledgeable breeders are putting out.

At our club the dogs are tested in all 3 phases. If you don't title your dog how do you know the weakness? HOw do you know your dog will engage a helper during the courage test in 90 degree weather or pouring rain? How do you know your dog can pass a BH with traffic, bikes, other dogs?

Just because a dog makes a good house pet and doesn't chase the neighbors cat dosen't make it breed worthy or does it?

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