Well Bred vs Backyard Bred - Page 6

From what I have seen and researched Keith's statements are correct in some cases. Show lines DO have some that work VERY well. Look at ANY video of VA Karat's Ulk's work to name one.Triumphs Gucci for another. There are several others. That WOULD and do stand right up there with working lines in WORK, real and schutzhund.  They ARE VERY few and far between and there are VERY FEW show line breeders that care much at all about true working abilities. MOST want only to pass the testing to be able to move on or to show at a sieger show.  YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL IN CHOOSING WHAT SHOW LINES YOU USE.  AND you must raise them the same way as a working line person would with the same intensity and careful perfecting  and you will be surprised at how nicely they perform work. Most people who make assumptions about showlines have not taken the time to research the good lines for work. That is the biggest hindrance to showlines being used on a large scale basis.  Trainers in a hurry to train and sell dogs don't want to take the time find the right ones. AND BELIEVE ME THERE ARE PLENTY OF WORKING LINES THAT WASH OUT ALSO!  The chances are just higher with less research with working lines as most working line breeders have the drive/nerve/work focus.
If you don't believe us, then just ask a well known working line person named Molly of Eichenluft kennel. She has also experienced a few show lines with great work.
Debby

djc: do stand right up there with working lines in WORK, real and schutzhund. 



can you give an example of an highly rated k9 outfit (military or police) that possess active showline gsd's?



i have said before there are diamonds in the ruff. but do you have an example of a showline dog on active duty or retired that possesses the physical and mental capability to perform his or her job? One that is in a role/outfit that put a lot of demand on the dog day in and day out. What was this dogs shelf life for active service as well?

I know there is a grey area here as we could get into debates for years on washed out workinglines or sport vs real work and so on and so forth. but i would like to know of a showline from rescent years that kept up with working line dogs in a demanding enviroment with a respected unit.

"AND you must raise them the same way as a working line person would with the same intensity and careful perfecting and you will be surprised at how nicely they perform work."

This is perhaps the truest statement in this thread.  The issue, in my humble opinion, lies less with the capabilities of the dogs than how they're being trained and worked.

Y'all smoking the good s**t, that's all I can say...peace!

50 years back it was common to see the black and tan/red dogs riding in police cars, guiding the blind, working as war dogs, just about any venue you can imagine, they were the image that came to mind when the gsd was mentioned.What happened , where did these dogs go?  Do you think it was just a change in preference concerning coat color that caused the black and tan/red dogs to be replaced with sables,bicolors, blacks in working venues or do you suppose it has to do with ability to do the work.I'm not bashing the black and red dogs by anymeans, I have two that I love very much, one a v rated schutzhund 3, but they're not in the same class as the working lines of today.I don't suffer from the my dog is better then your dog theory, my eyes are wide open and I know what I see in my dogs.The problems the showline dogs suffer today are clearly the result of the way they are bred, this can be denied for eternity but it won't change a thing. Admitting there's a problem and change in the breeding programs are the keys to success, but I doubt that will ever happen.Personally I think the conformation of todays showline dogs pretty much tells the whole story. You reap what you sow.

Keith, I'm glad you have a showline dog that can do the work. You seem genuinely concerned in your efforts to study genectics and improving the showlines. Maybe your one of those people that will improve them I sure hope so.I can't think of anything I'd like better then to see these dogs regain their status in the gsd world.

Michael - I may be confusing you with another poster -- if so, I apologize.  Did you post several Posts & Threads ago, that you have a Working Line that you have never seen sleep, that paces continually, and that drives you wife nuts?   If you are the Poster who stated that, then my question is -- What is the purpose of this dog?   Just curious. 

MaggieMae,I don't remember posting anything of that nature.                     Michael

Michael, Your post is 1000 percent right on. Its the truth and the reality of the situation today. Doesn't make anybody bad or a basher for pointing out what is reality. People can either change breeding priorites or continue to see the separation between these dogs and working dogs decline. The defensiveness of some is a major part of the problem. People use the "bashing" tool to NOT address the facts they are presented with, much less talk about possible solutions to get the ship right. You can't breed the same lines to maintain a color type over and over and over and over and not get deterioration. CANT!!!   If you must have this look at the cost of the working qualities, then ADMIT it and quit trying to distort reality. But with this type saturation come mentalphysical impairments more frequently than should appear in the breed normally. Its science not an opinion!!

Michael -- I just found the Post -- it was another Michael who posted -- sorry for the mix up.

Gustav:
People use the "bashing" tool to NOT address the facts they are presented with, much less talk about possible solutions to get the ship right. You can't breed the same lines to maintain a color type over and over and over and over and not get deterioration. CANT!!! If you must have this look at the cost of the working qualities, then ADMIT it and quit trying to distort reality. But with this type saturation come mentalphysical impairments more frequently than should appear in the breed normally. Its science not an opinion!!

Thank you for a dose of common sense. I would, however, like to buy some of whatever the good s*** is! ;-)

Keith, I really don't know how this became about bashing. I really thought someone was asking a legitimate question as to why their VA bred dogs are so much less hardy and healthy than their BYB dogs. I thought to myself  "oh, this is an easy one. I'll answer it." And now look where we are. This thread never should've gotten to working vs. show. It had nothing to do with the OP.  Nothing. Lots of smoke and mirrors, really, in what seems to be an attempt to confuse the issue at hand. It was simply a question of why "well bred" dogs aren't healthier. I'm sorry you didn't like my pointing out the facts as I see them. And yes, you may allege I know nothing, and you would not be the first man to do so, but I will stick with my story that breeding things to all look alike is not a good idea. End of story.

MaggieMae- I have a dog who I don't see sleep. Come to think of it, he paces, too. Continually patrols the perimeter. What does this have to do with anything? His purpose is friend and protector. I know it wasn't my post you were thinking of, but you've got me curious as to where you're going with this. That bad kind of curious...like staring at a train wreck. LOL.