Genetics or training - Page 6

This is simple........

Genetics.

For the most part a genetically strong dog can sit in a kennel with very little socialization and training for over a year and come out and do bitework like a champ. The same cannot be said for a genetically inferior dog.

However, the gentically inferior dog, started early, exposed environementally, and trained well, can look great on a trial field. What is unfortunate is many can't/don't see the difference or believe the training and envirnment playes a larger role. hten breed these genetically inferior dogs

Great post.  It would really be great if there were standardized testing methods that could unequivocably separate the genetically inclined from the cleverly trained.  Titled accomplishments are great, but more often are about competitive egos, publicity, promotion, politics, money, etc. become the name of that game, and it will always provide a murky view of the reality beneath it.  Even when the breeder has no trouble identifying the distinction between them, the public market drives what is produced, and available quality declines as those demands are met.  I wish there were a clear answer to this perplexing riddle, aside from lots of trial and error.  Less dogs would have to be rehomed that turn out to be a disappointment.

A more experienced, accurate and honest breeder's evaluation to the potential buyer would be a good start, as opposed to creating marketable hype.  But even with that, it will still happen.  A few years ago I sold a dog that was selected for being the only male of the litter, and the person wanted a schutzhund prospect.  I honestly informed the buyer that my opinion was the dog would be mediocre, not my recommendation.  This dog was taken to a world reknown trainer to work towards it's title, and I was to be honest somewhat embarassed for that.  I've no doubt at all that such a skillful trainer could put a title on the dog to earn it's 'breeding rights', but I would rather it have been a better representative of the genetics behind it.

Titles themselves should not justify an entitlement to breed, nor should lack of titles.  But as a breeder who wishes to retain some semblance of order in the working dog lines I create, I require the handler certify their dogs in some form of work, be it sport or "real".  But the key to that is, the would-be breeder will have a more thorough knowledge and evaluation of what they intend to breed with, and for myself knowing that they truly spent the time required to know the dog, through the process of training it.  Doesn't mean they know how to make a sensible match for a breeding pair, but if that dedication has been demonstrated, I'm willing to offer suggestions if asked.

So, bitework is the determining factor of genetics???? Huh??????

What about obedience?

What if your dog with little socialization and training has shitty hips, but, bites like a "champ". He/she should be bred???

What about your if your genetic champ of a bitework dog can't be trained to do anything else??? Should it be bred???

Again, what if your genetic champ of a bitework dog can not adapt to environmental changes??? Should it be bred???

I believe that people do look for dogs that are highly trainable, so, I think that training does play a major role.

I also believe that a trainer can not do anything with a dog that its genetics will not allow it to do. There is no magic peformed by trainers. Some are much better at in than others and those who spout the notion that genetics is the only thing are probably not very good trainers. Some trainers actually find it a challenge to work with a dog that might be less gifted than others and work real hard with that dog to allow it to perform at a high level. It is quite easy for almost any moron with a little knowledge and skill to take a dog, let's use Schutzhund as an example because it is well known here, that is a natural tracker, is highly motivated and easy to train in obedience, and bites like a champ, and do okay with it. Without good training, good socialization and other factors it will not perform at a high level. Without good training,socializing and varying environments how will you ever know if the dog has excellent genetics?

Overly simplified,
nature verses nurture,
I would choose nature.

Wasn't even sure if you were addressing me at first.  I never mentioned bitework at all, but a passing hip grade is also required.  Obedience is part of the schutzhund title, is it not?

I don't require a conformation rating, for personal reasons, though that can be somewhat more telling to a potential buyer of the soon-to-be bred dog, who should be aware.  I'm not out to control the way other people may decide to breed, but I do want to reinforce their awareness of what they're genetically working with.  I don't ever tell anyone they "should" or shouldn't breed a specific dog.  It's simply none of my business how they arrive at the choices they make.  If they certify it in work and pass OFA, that's a milestone for breeding standards in this country, and I won't bear any shame for allowing it.

I have to disagree, there are plenty of "tricks" to improve points in the trials, and if dogs that performed at the higher levels were the only ones to be bred, that point would be more valid.

Daryl,
I wasn't addressing you.
I was addressing GARD.
GARD usually has some interesting thoughts and things to say.
That's why I asked him the questions.

As for tricks, they still aren't magic, and it still is training.

I think it was directed at me Daryl........

So, bitework is the determining factor of genetics????

For me yes it is. It is the best test for temperment, and courage in my opinion.
 Which is what I want my dogs for.

What about obedience?

Uh, I believe that is the training part of the equation, isn't it? Or are you talking about biddability, which is genetic?

What if your dog with little socialization and training has shitty hips, but, bites like a "champ". He/she should be bred???

Depends on what you call shitty. I would breed a borderline or mild dog if everything else was great, sure.

Again, what if your genetic champ of a bitework dog can not adapt to environmental changes??? Should it be bred???

Environmental stability is genetic and in my experience goes hand and hand with strong temperment so to me they are one and the same.

Without good training,socializing and varying environments how will you ever know if the dog has excellent genetics?

This is the point and where people who share your mindset are confused........

Often times bad training is a much better indicator of good genetics than good training. If a dog is not extensively socialized and still doesn't freak out around people, that is genetic, If it has not been overexposed to environmental stimuli, and they are not freaked out by noises, new environments, or environemental stressors, thats genetic.

If you are talking about evaluating genetics for breeding stock your thinking is backwards.

I often forget that.  There are breeders and there are end-users.

As for tricks, they still aren't magic, and it still is training. 

True, but goes to confuse the evaluation for breeding, for what is "supposed" to be demonstrated of its genetics.  There's no doubt the competitive points system requires a 'trainable' dog.  It ultimately leads to promoting hype and false representation.

It seems many people have different opinions on what is trained or genetic. or the importance of either BUT:

NOT Trying to hijack this thread but i think it pertains to question at hand- if not we can start another thread.

How do you guys handle your assessments of genetic temperament differ?

PUPS and GREEN Dogs.

Curious to how you conduct assessments say if you were going to europe to procure 5 green dogs- 5 trained dogs and 5 puppies.

What are the assessments for each. And more importantly how are you trying to bring the genetic flaws to light>?especially what has been trained to cover up in the adult dogs.



Take for example- yesterday i took my GSD and mali into a friends shop and we agitated them on concrete and sent them for bites into the dark bathroom with the shower running etc... coming out into area searchs w/ apprehension of the woods. To try to bring some light on any issues and or work over them if there were any.

For starters, how a dog responds in a non-routine exercise.  A novel situation, unusual conditions, etc. are going to show you how the dog deals with pressure rather than how habituated or desensitized it has become, how it reacts to the unexpected rather than repetitious, how willingly the dog confides in the handler as the "true" center of its comfort zone.  Sort of a two edge concept, because at some point or other, repetitious testing becomes training.  I'm not talking just bitework, so use your imagination.