Silho shepherds - Page 7

I have not met Tina, nor seen her kennel (yet). However, my friend has, and yes, the stories are not true, from what she has seen.  I do know that a non-ISSR breeder had their whole kennel wind up in the pound recently, due to severe neglect. These dogs were also unsocialized, and therefore, very difficult to place. I hear sooo many stories. The slivers neglect their dogs. Tina neglects her dogs. Tina runs a puppymill. The slivers don't keep proper littermate records/hip x-rays, etc. Tina doesn't keep proper records hip x-rays. I mean, just WHO are you going to believe? Unless I have personal knowledge of a situation, it's just 'he said/she said, tit-for-tat.  I choose to believe the breed founder, the lady who has devoted her life to these dogs, and been through incredible hardship to keep the breed going all these years. She's in her 60's now, and keeps a schedule that would make most younger people drop in their tracks.

I'm attending Homecoming this year, mainly because Fred Lanting is going to be there, and do some seminars on structure and movement. I'm sure he'll also give me an honest opinion of my two GSD's....   I'm also hoping to visit Tina's kennel, which is usually part of Homecoming for those who want to make the trip.

Since the Lanting seminars will likely be of interest to GSD folks, you can expect a full report from me in late August.

Oh, and  hip issues? Here's one for you: Tina paid $4,000 for a top German import in 1969. At 3 years of age, he already had his Sch !, and she was doing Level 3 schutzhund training with him, jumping him over a 6 foot scaling wall, etc. He was doing great. Since many people were interested in breeding him, Tina decided to get his hips done. The vet called about his hip x-ray. His hips were completely out of their sockets.  She had him neutered, and retired him to a home on a farm. According to Tina, the poor hips she was finding in the GSD breed were one of the reasons she started her own breed, and began gathering littermate information data on all the dogs she bred, to try to improve their hips and overall health. Yes, some Shilohs have bad hips, but most of the owners who post on her forum report that their dogs have passed OFA.

In the 40 some year breed history, has one ever gained a working title of any kind??

Check this out:  http://www.goupstate.com/article/20070321/NEWS/703210329/1044

Many Shilohs have tracking and agility titles, and many do well at herding. Schutzhund is not their thing however, so of of course, in the eyes of many in this forum, that makes them totally worthless... 

One of the regular posters on the ISSR forum is a forest ranger, who owns 3 Shilohs, which are trained for SAR.

What's this about a King Shepherd crossed with a Leonberger?  I must have missed that.

Oh, and Daryl, prior to the split with the AKC, many of Tina's dog's WERE titled in Schutzhund. She and her husband trained and sold GSD's for personal protection and police work. Tina degreed  her first Schutzhund dog under NASA when she was only 16 years old.

most of the owners posting on the forum are also clients of Tina Barber, so that info could be a little biased.

OFA DATABASE:                                                                                             RANK            # EVAL.       % EXCELLENT  % DYSPL

Elbows:

OFA Cardiac:

Shiloh N/A                                                                                                      rank              % eval          % normal   % equivocal %affect

OFA Thyroid:                 

if more shiloh's were evaluated for OFA, the incidence of HD will probably be greater.  you have 464 shilohs eval. against almost 93,000 gsd.

also, Tina has posted 15 litters for this year.  how can anyone, young or old, give all the puppies whelped from these litters the attention they need to properly develope?  Shilohs have large litters, so lets just say each bitch has 8 puppies, thats120 puppies this year.

She asks a minimal $1500 us for each puppy, thats $180,000 a year.  but most of her puppies sell for more, so this is a minimal figure.  but she isn't in it for the money?  She truly loves the breed she is trying (for 40 years) to develope.

"most of the owners posting on the forum are also clients of Tina Barber, so that info could be a little biased."

Uberland, are you trying to say that if someone's dog was reported as dysplastic, the forum moderators wouldn't let the post through? Believe me, that does NOT happen. Recently, one of the pups was diagnosed with severe aortic stenosis, and the topic was fully discussed on the forum.  The new owner was told the pup had a heart murmur, and chose to adopt it anyway, as a pet.

As for the OFA figures, please remember that includes all Shilohs that are OFA'd,  not just the ISSR dogs.  I was aware of those figures, and I also noticed that a lot of Tina's dogs were NOT in the database, so maybe at one time she did read her own x-rays, or maybe she lets her vet do it, to save money on OFA.  Or, she may have the dogs Penn-hipped instead.  I don't know. Unlike many people on this forum, I don't jump to negative conclusions about someone until I have all the facts!                         

Uberland, Tina socializes the pups in her office while she works. She also has four full-time kennel workers who help out too. See this link here: http://www.newzionshilohs.org/AboutOurDogs.htm

As for being in it for the money....well, whatever I say, I don't think you're going to believe me.  Let me ask you this: would you work a 16 hour day, if you were doing something "just for the money"?

Both Tina's grandmother and father raised and trained dogs. It's a way of life for her.

.http://www.newzionshilohs.org/About_Us.htm

Sunsilver wrote:

<<would you work a 16 hour day, if you were doing something "just for the money"?

Both Tina's grandmother and father raised and trained dogs. It's a way of life for her.

.http://www.newzionshilohs.org/About_Us.htm>>

So she is going to take every one of these puppies to work with her? 

ask anyone why they work 16 hours a day, they will tell you for the money.  most people don't even like their jobs, but they do it for the money. 

breeding dogs should not be your job.

Both my grandmother (she raised pomeranians) and grandfather (always raised old bulldogs) raised dogs, as did my mother when my sister and I were growing up (She started in Chows, lost our 1st one when he was 18yrs old).  It is my way of life also.  But I do not have 10 or more litters a year, and do not make $180,000 to $240,000+ on my dogs.  She could easily have bred these dogs, kept the operation small, and still be where she is at today.

I guess with as much as she makes, she can afford to have 4 people for FULL TIME kennel help. she is running a commercial kennel. I am not saying she doesn't love her dogs, but come on, that many litters for 1 year is waay to much. and this is how many she has every year.

Uberland, reaed the link, please. Her office is in the kennel. Yes, it is a commercial kennel. Some people raise dogs as a hobby, Tina does it for a living. I see nothing wrong with either, as long as you aren't running a puppy mill. If she were only to produce a small number of litters a year, the breed would likely die. A large genepool is needed to keep it healthy and thriving.

From The Canaan Dog Gene Pool, by Lee Boyd:

Geneticists give a ballpark figure of 500 breeding animals as a minimum population size needed to conserve genetic diversity.

I would be surprised if the gene pool, including all the ISSR breeders, is that large.

Tina, is it true that originally YOU did all the hip evaluations yourself?