Schutzhund USA proposed bylaw Change - Page 7

Neither organization is a breed registry nor will they ever will be. They are no more then performance organization that love the GSD and believe me they painfully understand that. This is about the team. If you re-read  Johannes's, Lyle's, and Nathaniel's explanations you will see that.

A little history lesson: I first made the WUSV team in 1997 (GSDCA-WDA) back then neither team liked each other. USA considered them the B team but they did recognized each others score books.  Then came the WUSV rule change one team per country then the fights started getting really bad.

 The straw that broke the camels back or should I say brought about this propose by-law change started some time after the GSDCA-WDA Nationals when first Rick Burgos pulled from the GSDCA-WDA team then Eric Eisenberg pulled. GSDCA-WDA  replaced them with two other people that showed in their national event. USA felt that at least one should have been replaced by their alternate. GSDCA-WDA was within their rights to replace them and they did. To add insult to injury, USA selected T. Floyd to be their team captain then all of sudden Dana moved up on the list to show for GSDCA-WDA. Thus the Bullshit reason for the by-law change "Conflict of interest"

Now, I will not be at the meeting I have people coming to train. ( We are sending a delegate however) but I am willing to bet that if this by-law change doesn't pass that someone will make a motion that you can't be a member of another competing GSD organization in the U.S. and represent USA or some variation of that. Then you guys will see that this has nothing to do with the preservation of the GSD but the TEAM.

Wallace Payne

Okay now I'm confused again.  It was my understanding that on alternating years, one organization names 3 team members, the other organization names 2 team members and one alternate for our WUSV team.  If one of the team members pulls, the alternate takes that person's place, regardless of which organization the team member who pulls is from, no?  Didn't this same thing happen in 2005?  A WDA team member pulled prior to traveling to the event, so  the USA alternate  stepped into that position because those are the rules?

No Sue,

This was way prior to the team ever leaving to go to the WUSV.    The WDA qualifier winners went in the order::

SchH3 289 Aceofnike van het Bleekhot Charley-Karoly Meszaros 97 96 96 a V
SchH3 286 Buddy vom Burg Kurzwallen Eric S. Eisenberg 99 89 98 a V
SchH3 285 Cento van Kiefbos Rick Burgos 99 91 95 a SG
SchH3 282 Dasko von der Daelenberghutte Pete Kovach 94 89 99 a SG
SchH3 281 Nando vom Schloß Zweibruggen Dana Palumbo 93 94 94 a SG
SchH3 277 DJ vom Zieringer-Land Bill Pivirotto 91 89 97 a SG
SchH3 276 Tino vom grauen Bund Jim Alloway 97 82 97 a SG

Eric and Rick had to pull their dogs months before the WUSV for injury and personal reasons.

So that moved everyone up by two places - there were 4 spots on the GSDCA team in 2009 (3 and 1 alternate) So that made the team Charlie, Pete and Dana with the alternate dog being ?  Not sure they sent one, but it should have been the next placing after Dana. 

USA sent Dan, Mike for their 2 spots on the team and Lisa was USA's alternate.

What Wallace is saying, and had already been told this many months ago when it happened, is that USA wanted USA's dogs to fill the spots on GSDCA that were vacated by Eric and Rick.  Which is totally illogical and does comport to the rules.
But I heard it from many sources that it did happen.  Of course, WDA just moved up their next placings to fill the team.  That is the way it should be for either USA or WDA.

I similar problem happened I think in France at the WUSV where dogs were injured on GSDCA (WDA) and USA wanted to put their dogs in rather than WDA's alternates.  If I am remembering correctly, it was even taken to the WUSV committee, of course, GSDCA used their alternates.  Had it been in the reverse, GSDCA would have no right to put its alternates in over USA's alternates.

Like I said the amendment is pointed directly at national competitors - Wallace is providing a precipitating factor.  In 2004 at the WDA National in Tacoma, competitors said  there were a lot veiled threats to particpants out there that they would be kicked out of USA if they competed there.  That did not happen. 

What Wallace is saying is that the whole thing is about control of the team. And of course that goes back to the old Hatfield and McCoys feud that has been there since WDA was formed and the "dislike" has continued.  Liek Wallace said it got heated up again when WUSV told United States and the other countries who had similar situations with two clubs and two teams to reach an agreement and combine.  That is how the 2 and an alternate and 3 and an alternate rotation got started.
Bottom line is each team fills their own spots whether they are full or vactated. 

Sue, also, in 2005 for WUSV France, Charlie's dog was injured on the way to the airport. The other Team members for GSDCA were Jim Lempner, Dave Kroyer and Chico Sanford was the alternate.  Dave's dog was injured in practice in France and pulled.  Chico was the GSDCA alternate and filled the spot for Charlie.  The two team Members for USA were Wallace who ended up a very super placing of 4th and all scores were within one point of another 2nd through 4th.  T Floyd was the other team member for USA and Randy Rhodes was the alternate - Randy stepped in to take Kroyer's place as GSDCA had used up their alternate, so USA's had to fill the spot.

Kim, your recollections are not correct.  You are welcome to contact Dean, 2005 USA Team Captain, at deancalderon@hotmail.com or feel free to give him a call at 740-477-9827 tomorrow (he's on the road tonight) for the facts.  He'll also be at Nationals next weekend should you care to discuss this further.

Thank you,
Karla Calderon 

I too have to weigh in on this one.
If push comes to shove, I will drop my membership with the UScA club. I feel the WDA is the organization that most people who show dogs will stay with due to the fact that there are so many more member clubs that put on conformation shows.
I do not agree with the GSDCA or what they stand for, so I have dropped my membership. And the AKC does nothing for our German, Czech, etc., dogs except rake in the money for filing fees etc. . Now I believe the AKC will recognize the SV titles so that is one concession in the right direction and I do believe the WDS is having a quiet burial.
The UScA who consists of Tim Burke and Mary what ever her name is who was the show secretary in Chicago could make any one go running away screaming. I wrote a letter regarding her rudeness  and never so much as received an answer or rebuttal. They treated Connie Miller like crap. And this a  woman that put on a  Sieger Show in Wi almost  alone and did a wonderful job.
So go ahead and vote, but be prepared to lose alot of members.

Absolutely true, Pat! One need only to look at event calendars to see that WDA clubs offer many more koerungs. This passes and those who keep membership with UScA will be hard pressed to find a conformation event when they need one.

Sounds to me like this is more about ego and politics than upholding the working GSD standard.

Wallace has hit the nail on the head. If you analyze Lyle’s arguments, they boil down to:


1) Vague statements about international intrigue. The only international event USA has anything to do with is the WUSV championship, so his agenda clearly concerns the team, and the possibility that WDA will do a bang-up job of hosting in 2013. There are perhaps at most 20 (out of 3000+) members of USA who have a realistic shot at making the team, so control of the team and championship does not seem to me to be of much benefit to most members.

2) Statements about betrayal by WDA leadership. I have no idea what really went on, but punishing grassroots members for the fact that USA leadership was out-negotiated or out-flanked is absurd.
 
3) Statements about preserving the GSD as a working dog. These statements only sound like logic. As someone writing earlier pointed out, walking away from AKC/GSDCA/WDA gives those of us who care genuinely about working and the breed no voice at all. We may not like what the AKC has done to our breed, and many others, but it is the recognized breed registry in this country, and we have to live with them. While I don’t expect the GSDCA to change their standard to conform to the SV standard and require koerung, I didn’t ever expect to see them recognize schutzhund titles, either.

4) Statements about conflict of interest. I’m sorry, but members cannot have a conflict of interest. Officers, yes, but the organization is its members, and their expression of their self-interest is entirely appropriate. Registering a litter with the AKC so that the puppies will have an internationally recognized pedigree does not imply approval of their standard. Yes, it funds an organization which I personally find problematic (to say the least), but, then, I’m not entirely thrilled with everything my taxes buy, and I intend to keep on paying them.
The way USA conducts business, through its executive committee and at a general board meeting held at the Nationals effectively prevents grassroots members from having much of a voice. For the most part, only clubs who have members competing are represented, and that is not likely to be representative of the membership at large.

This amendment would be very bad for USA. It also hand WDA a public relations goldmine, giving them the opportunity to poach members who are presently satisfied with USA. I honestly believe that it will result in significant loss of membership and revenue.

I stand by my statements.  I was called by team members on WDA and the team captain as it was a brouha.  Landau could not be located who was VP of WDA and the Liason for GSDCA at the time (meaning the only officer in France at the time that had any authority to act for GSDCA).  Because I had hosted the 2005 WDA National, all felt I could find/call the correct parties here in the US  to resolve the issue.  I also heard other comments in the background by othe people.

The letter from the president of GSDCA at the time the combined team was dictated, Ginny Altman, was sent over which settled the argument.  The letter was to USA outling how GSDCA would field its teams and another point was that the uniforms would bear the name of the United States of America so there would never be confusion with the abbreviation of USA as to there were two clubs involved..  It is the only thing in writing there is. 

No alternates were not validly entered in the WUSV - all entries were accepted by WUSV that made up the United States Team.  More than 6 dogs were accepted as entries combined.

Also will add that there is NO WUSV rule for how WUSV teams from a country where they are made up by two seperate clubs will handle succession.  They expect those clubs to work it out between themselves.  The agreement came out to 2 spots on the team for GSDCA in even years, with 3 spots on the team in odd years, the reverse for USA. 

I am not for one club or the other.  They both serve good purposes. Both are doing what they have the legal and WUSV membership rights to do. In that instance, the USA team captain postured to put USA people in the slot.  That is a good team captain fighting for his own club.  I am sure he was unaware of the letter and that USA had not put anything in writing. Likewise, GSDCA stood up for their team members.   The one thing that does bother me though, is there is a lot of misinformation to rank and file out there and people do not know where to go verify the facts.

You could write to the current president of GSDCA, Tish Walker and ask her for a copy of the letter that Ms. Altman wrote to USA.  You could also write to USA office or president and ask for the letter, I beleive Jim Elder was the presidentt at the time.  Bottomline, other than Ms. Altman's letter, to my knowledge, there is no written agreement.  Now could have team captains maybe discussed sucession? Maybe - but they are not officers of the organization nor are they authorized to override an officer's directives or anything board approved.

You can also write the WUSV and ask if there are rules regarding this.

Ron,

Good post and wth clarity.