Well Bred vs Backyard Bred - Page 7

Gathering FACTS.....
In the mean time. Lanheim training center has trained and placed many showline dogs into police service with great success. The old Edelheim K9 academy worked with mostly show dogs to noteriety in years past. 
Heck I just sold a showline puppy to a police dog trainer in Michigan, who knows all about the bias against show lines and yet he prefers showlines that can work OVER working lines for a mulititude of reasons. One just has to open your eyes and look for them.
BUT this bias has been brewing for years, and in my opinion, because of (as I stated before...) people NOT DOING THEIR RESEARCH and trying to work with show dogs that have no business being bred because of the lack of nerve, drive, intelligence etc. It's no wonder and not supprising at all to me.  But to group them all together and and say that NONE of them will hold up and work along side working lines is false. Just stating the facts.
  Color can go either way!  It is very nieve to think that just becaue a dog is a certain color that it can or can not work! I get questioned all the time with one of my working line bitches, as to if she doesn't have some show line in her, and it's only because she is a tan/black saddle back. Here is her pedigree  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/391539.html ... 
now do you say all black and red dogs are show lines???  Come on you are more intelligent than that?!!  Breeding for solid black is much more dangerous and much less diverse geneticly than black and red/tan saddlebacks!! It has very little to do with color. That's just as absurd as saying all sables can work!! Guess what I trained at one of the top Sch. clubs in the USA for 4 years. They had mostly working lines and were compeletly against show lines.... and I can tell you that I saw with my own eyes top working dogs produce consistantly dogs that would not work.  Many factors can go into that... like did they expect too much too soon and were too hard on the puppy? Probably.  Was the dog just too confidant and did not take a fancy to playing a stupid game, when he knew it was not a real threat? Maybe. But those ARE the facts.... sables do not always work and black/red/tan saddle backs do work sometimes too.
I really hate having to do this type of discussion as there are so many out there that are just blind because they want to be and that will never change.  Unless you have worked a good show dog and felt him on your arm, you don't have any basis for thinking that you are talking about facts. Most people who mouth off have just been taught these bias' by their mentors and have no real hands on experience with a good show line.  I am waiting for the day that someone takes my challenge seriously and raises one of my puppies as they would their working line and then tells me that the dog can not work and stand with at least the average true working, working line dog. The thing is there are people out there that would do it and be especially hard on the puppy trying to prove their point.... that would wash out even working line puppies. So thus is my quandry and search for a open minded working line person to step up and be fair in the challenge. Maybe someday....

Ummm you can not possibly be stating that ALL "well bred" dogs are not as healthy as byb dogs????!!!!!! That truely IS absurd!
Debby

i could care less about color honestly. and have no opinioons beside breeding for color as a primary iniative is wrong.

trying to work with show dogs that have no business being bred because of the lack of nerve, drive, intelligence etc

this seems to be the majority of breeding that take place and this is the point i was making. Most do not possess the qualities to do the work. I have caught show dogs as you state and have yet to find on that i felt i could trust to work at a high enough level to put mens lives in their hands. However i have caught some schh3 show dogs. does that mean they can preform for years in an enviroment that tests them day in and out and have men depending on them apprehending 25 perps a night with 3-4 narc searchs a night and come back out and do it again for 12 more hours the next day. No it doesnt. SCHH doesnt compare. Like i stated before there may be a handful of diamonds in the ruff but there are not many. So yes when 95%+ dont measure up you are going to get generalized.

Showline, working line.
isnt the pudding in the name? show vs work? Show lines are bred for the purpose of show are they not? working are supposed to be bred for the purpose of work are they not?  there may be some show lines that out work some working lines(because of poor dogs, poor breeding, poor raising) but showlines arent podium dogs on a national stage, they arent saught after by prodominant police,service,miltary agencies to work. They simply arent capable and durable enough as a generalization to keep up with elite working dogs. Its simply unfathomable to make the statement they can.

It will take generations upon generations for the showlines to repare back into a state of functionability even if everything was done perfectly. Its just not goign to happen. So you have to accept that. and if you dogs are as profound as you make them out to be then they will catch on and help. But know if what you say is correct then you are the minority within the group. its a simple fact.

Also I can name many show breeders on the east coast who breed for conformaty traits, color, and look above all else. From the people i have met in the community this seems to be the majority. By doing this they have caused genetic issues and unsound physical and mental dogs.

This breed was meant to work. that as simple as it gets. so breeding off for show only is a diservice to what the GSD is about and for. but if thats what poeple wants there dogs for then they can do that. thats fine im not here to judge and i could care less.Whatever makes them happy. but dont try to compare apples to oranges here. thats why they are in show. to show. not be effective real workers.

Debby, who are you addressing and what are you talking about? And I mean this sincerely, not sarcastically. If you're not talking to me, then ok, but your post was right after mine and you keep saying "you".

Did I miss a bunch of posts somehow? Who's talking about breeding for solid black? Or sable? I'm totally confused by 99% of what you said, as I didn't see anywhere that any of your statements were in response to the issue at hand.

I thought the thread was about why BYB (probable outcrosses) were healthier than VA bred dogs often times. Again, don't know where all this "bashing" entered into it...or why it's turning into show vs. work!  Who said anything about  showlines not being able to work? Or colors that can or can't work? And who's naive? Good Lord, this is getting frustrating and confusing, and as Keith will tell you, I don't know much and am therefore easily confused.

A few of us are trying to discuss facts, like adults, and face them (whether pleasant or not) and we have to wade through the show line defenses to get there. HOW DID A DISCUSSION ABOUT SIMPLE FACTS TURN INTO A BITCH THREAD ABOUT SHOWLINE BASHING? I personally, don't give two s***s about showline dogs. I like dogs on an individual basis, and I could not care less how they're bred unless they are bred in such a way that is just asking for trouble, as I feel breeding all dogs to be the same color w/the same markings is.  I do, however, give a s*** about being honest about what types of breedings are detrimental to the breed (or breeds, as the lines seem to have separated so much that they don't seem to be the same breed lately.)

Enlighten me, please.

I guess we can agree to disagree about most points. : )
I do know that I am in the minority, but that only encourages me to use my stock (research) to improve the breed. 
Of course work is suppose to be a huge part of a well bred GSD!!  YES there are many many many TOP of the TOP showline breeders that breed ONLY for what wins in the show ring and only care enough about work to pass the testing at a Sieger Show.. SOOO ?? that will never change!! Yes I am a renagade and proud of it. But there IS a bred standard and the SV who molded the breed still has the right to judge what is correct and what is not. Work and Show wise. I just wish that it all would come together and Sieger show work would be judged the SAME as Schutzhund. It really urks me to know that there is an address in Germany to send your money to and get a title in the mail.  But what am I going to do about it? There is nothing I can, except to do what I know is best as far as breeding correct dogs who have correct drives and conformation. BTW that includes working lines too!
Nick names...
lol The nick names are from where the dogs do best NOT that they can not do both. There are some in working lines that do well in the show ring! Does that make them a show dog??? lol
NO, I do believe in the breed standard! Breeding ONLY for work will give us coyote ugly dogs that bounce off the walls and are socially dangerous. 

Oh Gosh Jen..... not all of my posts are about/for you. They are in general addressing what has been said by many people.... sighs
YOU are the one who brought up show/working lines in your very first post!!!! lol OH YEAH... that's easy!! bash the showlines! lol YOU started it!  Not being nasty or anything, but read your own posts!

Maybe all this is above your head but that' s only for you to decide. Not me. I don't know you.

In your highlighted quoting of Gustov is where you/he brought in color.
 
The only thing specificly to you is an answer to your statement
" It was simply a question of why "well bred" dogs aren't healthier." and my answer to that is above in my previous post.
If you don't understand the rest... it's OK....

Jenni I'm not bashing anyone.

I was simply making the point that as a generalization(playing the percentages) more show lines come up with genetically unsound dogs, with poor temperaments, physical issues, structural issues and so on as the breeding aren't sound because of breeding for a handful of specific traits at the expense of all others as well as being created off of an already closed gene pool into a smaller one.

The side bar on performance was because accusations were made. it was not my intent to high jack the thread. But it was also my point that if the show line has diminished capabilities( obviously does) then there is a reason. There is a reason for lack of drive, physical ability/durability,sound temperaments, and heart.

How this ties into the OP. even our so called great breeders many times do a disservice to the breed IMHO and by looking at the show lines it is obvious!!!! as those dogs derived from The GSD no matter what line and look at where most of them are now. Without knowing what you want, knowing the breeder, doing the research, and hand selecting what you wish from the stock pile out there then you take a huge risk from big names or back yards.

I do not intend to bash any dogs. I work with rescued mix breeds and foster quite a few mixes and show/working alike. I judge dogs on themselves. but if you look at percentages the show line shepherds are a bigger risk unless you know exactly what you want and have done extensive research to find they few good ones.


djc:

Jenni isn't a dummy. she was referring to someone calling her one the other day and being facetious about it.

Yoschy, thanks for your last sentence. That made me laugh. And it's also nice to be in a thread w/someone who not only knows what the word "facetious" means, can spot when someone is being facetious, AND can actually spell it! ;-) Whoohoo! There is hope for the world!

And I know you weren't bashing; I wasn't talking about you.

Debby, nevermind. You miss my point.  If you didn't pick up my tone, and really thought I wasn't understanding, then we're not going to get anywhere. For the record, I wasn't bashing, Yoschy wasn't bashing, several others weren't bashing. I guess things have gotten to the point where people are so blind that they can't see the forest for the trees and someone pointing out a fact is a "basher."
 
Truth is, I really don't care enough to think enough about other people's dogs to bash them. Call me self-centered, but while everyone is busy arguing about show vs. work, I will concentrate on breeding dogs for versatility, working ability, health, and MENTAL STABILITY. Not necessarily in that order, but it doesn't matter, because if they don't have it ALL, I don't want anything to do with them. <shrug>

djc said --

Breeding ONLY for work will give us coyote ugly dogs that bounce off the walls and are socially dangerous.
------------

Yep

Yes, you must be correct Jen....
Of course I know you were being "facetious". But YOU said
Jen says.......:"Did I miss a bunch of posts somehow? Who's talking about breeding for solid black? Or sable? I'm totally confused by 99% of what you said, as I didn't see anywhere that any of your statements were in response to the issue at hand. " Your "tone" is obvious.
So if you can not read what has been posted.... and gather that all together into the whole of the thread.....  and read someone elses answers to the whole, then YES... we both should just "never mind"... lol Especially if you can not understand 99% of what I have said.


Here is Jen's very first post on this subject: ( if you don't care to go all the way back up there )
 and I quote  "gimme10mins...with all due respect, your dogs are show dogs. Bred for single purpose, inbred, linebred, etc. I think you would have a very different perspective if you owned several working line dogs and compared them to BYB dogs as opposed to VA dogs. VA dogs are the worst of the worst, genetically speaking. I'm not bashing your dogs, just pointing out facts."
Whether you think/say that that is NOT bashing is beside the point. It IS. Such generalizations are bashing. Point blank! You know that.
We all have to do what our heart and intelligence tells us to do.  Good luck with you dogs! I'm sure that they are all you say they are.  I wish you all the best. But don't cut down a showline that can be JUST as stable in all areas, if not more so than your's.  Where do you live? Maybe come by my house and visit my dogs and then you can judge and I'll buy lunch!

haha nice. always good to have a laugh now and again. by the way you have anymore pics of your pups?
 


to the OP:

this is the only statement i will make and im going to leave this thread. I would not put stock in the difference of who bred the dog. byb vs big name. This is why is say that. There are good and bad on boths sides of the fence. 

always always do your own research. have people help you if need be. Ive been in shepherds for a while and i still consult multiple people quite often. So dont ever think you know enough. research research research. talk to people who know both parents or more dogs in the lineage. watch the parents work. if protection is desired trait. decoy for them if capable. take a seasoned eye with you on your assessments. even if you knwo what you are doing. they may see something you dont as some can mask flaws. (see discussion on schh vs real work). know yourself exactly what you want from your dog in all facits. explain this completely to the breeder. and then select the desired pup or dog.

i have never judged a dog by its owner or breeder. judge it on itself and it family!!!!