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by hexe on 22 February 2009 - 04:02
There's one section of your last post I take exception to, GetARealDog:
"E collars worn 2-3 at a time, on bellies and flanks,"
Common usage of the e-collar on very hard dogs. Especially in Belgium. There are several reasons for it. Most of the time it is because a very hard dog that gets correction around the neck will only fight harder. Another reason is because it turns the dog away from the decoy and speeds the recall.
As far as using an e-collar on the belly or flanks: Just because someone claims it's 'common usage' doesn't make it right, no matter what country it's being done in. It's abusive, plain and simple, and so help me God, I'll call the cops and I'll file charges against any bastard I see doing something like that to their dog, no matter where it's being done or who's involved. And I'll be damn sure I take pictures/video of the abuse, too, just in case the police or the prosecutor don't want to get involved--the general public won't accept any 'common usage' bullshit. If you can't freaking train an animal without abusing it, you have no damn business doing anything with it save giving it over to someone who will treat it--and train it--humanely. That goes for beating or kicking the crap out of a dog and calling it 'training', too. (The latter being lightyears apart from stickwork, BTW).
And don't anybody give me any effing "You don't do bitework/don't have a 'real' dog/are a pussy/whatever" bullshit, either. That's just an abuser's attempt to justify their behavior. I have done bitework with my own dog, and in my younger days when I worked for a kennel that trained and supplied guard dogs for industrial sites (in both handler and agitator roles back then); I do know what a hard dog is, and what it's capable of doing, and that still doesn't justify inhumane 'training' techniques.
by Mindhunt on 22 February 2009 - 18:02
I know I am going to be painting a target on myself but here goes....
My personal opinion on any trainer who has to resort to 2-3 e-collars on bellies and flanks needs to take a step back and re-evaluate the entire relationship and training regime with the dog. Something is not working. I don't care how "hard" the dog is or how specifically he/she has been bred (yes, I have seen my trainer working with some exceptionally "hard" dogs, he has done K9 training for 20+ years professionally, my other trainer friend has spent years getting her degrees in animal behavior and has worked with dogs equally as long in K9 and rehabing dogs trained using the above thought process with success). Maybe have another experienced trainer watch to see what is occurring (yes, I know the saying, the only thing the other trainer can agree on is what the first trainer is doing wrong LOL). Sometimes an outside observer not invested in the dog can see something the trainer is missing or see another way to do something, because the dog's trainer has created a relationship with the dog and created behavior cycles (dog does "A", trainer does "B", and so on) to the point that many things become "habit" or "reaction". Also, maybe there needs to be more time spent training, retraining. I get there are deadlines for shows but maybe the dog doesn't. I and my trainers believe that the dog dictates the time taken to learn concepts, or unlearn behaviors.
I don't buy the "specifically bred for" line either. It is the same excuse used by some famous racing stables about their horses, just bred to race, nothing else, that is why many of them receive 50+ injections a day so they can race and be handled by humans (this steroid for inflammation, this one to stop the calcium loss from the steroid, this injection for, well you get the point).
Bring on the arrows and stones LOL
My personal opinion on any trainer who has to resort to 2-3 e-collars on bellies and flanks needs to take a step back and re-evaluate the entire relationship and training regime with the dog. Something is not working. I don't care how "hard" the dog is or how specifically he/she has been bred (yes, I have seen my trainer working with some exceptionally "hard" dogs, he has done K9 training for 20+ years professionally, my other trainer friend has spent years getting her degrees in animal behavior and has worked with dogs equally as long in K9 and rehabing dogs trained using the above thought process with success). Maybe have another experienced trainer watch to see what is occurring (yes, I know the saying, the only thing the other trainer can agree on is what the first trainer is doing wrong LOL). Sometimes an outside observer not invested in the dog can see something the trainer is missing or see another way to do something, because the dog's trainer has created a relationship with the dog and created behavior cycles (dog does "A", trainer does "B", and so on) to the point that many things become "habit" or "reaction". Also, maybe there needs to be more time spent training, retraining. I get there are deadlines for shows but maybe the dog doesn't. I and my trainers believe that the dog dictates the time taken to learn concepts, or unlearn behaviors.
I don't buy the "specifically bred for" line either. It is the same excuse used by some famous racing stables about their horses, just bred to race, nothing else, that is why many of them receive 50+ injections a day so they can race and be handled by humans (this steroid for inflammation, this one to stop the calcium loss from the steroid, this injection for, well you get the point).
Bring on the arrows and stones LOL
by Renofan2 on 22 February 2009 - 20:02
This is a video of Felice vom Amulree "Molly". Sorry no new video's. Melanie is my photographer and unfortunately between weather, helper vacations and Molly's health, we have not worked in Schutzhund for over 5 weeks. This is the longest we went without training since we started 1 1/2 years ago. I hope we will be back at it next weekend and she will get back to where we left off quickly.
This is my first time training in Schutzhund, so nothing as exciting as some of the other videos, but we are trying and having alot of fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHUx8C34-4E&feature=channel_page
Cheryl
by CrzyGSD on 22 February 2009 - 21:02
Here is a short video of my Troll Milinda son. Nikko von Barish. He is 8 in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-pzpIw5kto
Here is a short video of a Son (Kobe von der Graf) from my Troll son (Nikko). I have him for training for a BH. I'm actually trying to find a good working home for him. His mother is line-bred on Mink and Lewis. The owner wanted to use him as a stud but i talked to her about letting him go to a working home.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dHDv4vphZs&feature=channel_page
And here is a short video of my new young guy Uruk von Karthago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3VR9MD_l1I&feature=channel_page
Mark
www.ultimatekanine.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-pzpIw5kto
Here is a short video of a Son (Kobe von der Graf) from my Troll son (Nikko). I have him for training for a BH. I'm actually trying to find a good working home for him. His mother is line-bred on Mink and Lewis. The owner wanted to use him as a stud but i talked to her about letting him go to a working home.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dHDv4vphZs&feature=channel_page
And here is a short video of my new young guy Uruk von Karthago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3VR9MD_l1I&feature=channel_page
Mark
www.ultimatekanine.com
by Get A Real Dog on 22 February 2009 - 22:02
Very nice Mark......
Anyone notice most of the people who actually posted video are not the "hard chargers" on the keyboard here
Anyone notice most of the people who actually posted video are not the "hard chargers" on the keyboard here
by Jyl on 22 February 2009 - 22:02
I dont have any videos of my dogs working...but I do have ALOT of pictures. I hope to have some videos soon!
by Rezkat5 on 22 February 2009 - 22:02
Anyone notice most of the people who actually posted video are not the "hard chargers" on the keyboard here
Kathy
by Mindhunt on 23 February 2009 - 02:02
I too have lots and lots of pictures, personal home videos too but with an old camera and no sound. Here are a couple more stills. I am seeing a lot of impressive looking dogs. I am enjoying the videos and pics, thanks.
Loki wanting "Bad Guy"
Ronin pretending it's a "Bad Guy" (very intense)
Isis loves biting games
Loki wanting "Bad Guy"Ronin pretending it's a "Bad Guy" (very intense)Isis loves biting games
by Jenni78 on 23 February 2009 - 17:02
GARD, since you don't appear to be terribly fantastic at reading and comprehension, allow me to point-by-point show you where you TOTALLY missed what I was saying. My writings will be in purple, and yours in black. The red is your quoting me (out of context, naturally.)
Jenni--I called you out for a reason. You have never done bitework, so should not be offering "opinions" on a sunject yuou know nothing about. Why don't you ask questions and learn?ROTFLMFAO. I said I didn't do sport w/my dogs and never have, and never would. You took that to mean I "have never done bitework"? LMAO. Great example of your deductive reasoning skills. I'll chuckle all day about this one. Thanks.
E collars worn 2-3 at a time, on bellies and flanks,
Common usage of the e-collar on very hard dogs. Especially in Belgium. There are several reasons for it. Most of the time it is because a very hard dog that gets correction around the neck will only fight harder. Another reason is because it turns the dog away from the decoy and speeds the recall. Again, you completely missed my point. I understand e collars just fine, thank you. I own several myself. No one is talking about fucking Belgium, or very hard dogs, or anything you are talking about at all. I said that it was to correct a crooked platz, and that it involved a group of sick fucks laughing at a dog who was too scared to move a muscle. This has NOTHING to do with any legitimate training reason to use multiple ecollars. Why is it that you are so quick to defend your precious sport at all costs? Can you truly not believe that there are genitally-underdeveloped assholes out there who like to torture dogs in the name of points? No one said everyone is like this; it was merely an example brought up, and I find your knee-jerk defense of all "sport people" at all costs a bit disturbing, frankly. I thought sport people LIKED dogs....
They say the dogs are too "high-drive" to live in the house;
You probably saw French line Malinios that are bred for absoulte rediculous drive. My dog I have now comes down from some of the best French lines. I guarantee you 100% you could not and would not want my dog living in your house. They are not genetically imbalanced they are bred for a specific purpose; sport, police, and military work. They are not "pets" Just because a dog does not ive in a house does not mean they are not loved or do not have a good relationship with their handlers. Um, I have seen lots of Malinois. From totally different breedings, bred for completely different purposes. I would hazard a guess that I have interacted with Malinois unlike any you have encountered...not saying you would like these dogs, but just that they exist. Ridiculous is spelled with an "i" by the way. Anyway...you seem to think I just fell off the turnip truck yesterday (I love that expression, don't you guys?). My point was that no matter how shitty these people are at training, they blame the dogs. Living in a house doesn't mean shit. Only my 6lb dogs live in the house. The other 5 don't. I stand by my assessment that you die-hards don't care about temperament; you care about points. I have seen plenty of unbalanced dogs, and even more of you people who will defend them at all costs...I find it very sad. You don't truly care if the dog is balanced or not; THAT is my point.
Jenni--I called you out for a reason. You have never done bitework, so should not be offering "opinions" on a sunject yuou know nothing about. Why don't you ask questions and learn?ROTFLMFAO. I said I didn't do sport w/my dogs and never have, and never would. You took that to mean I "have never done bitework"? LMAO. Great example of your deductive reasoning skills. I'll chuckle all day about this one. Thanks.
E collars worn 2-3 at a time, on bellies and flanks,
Common usage of the e-collar on very hard dogs. Especially in Belgium. There are several reasons for it. Most of the time it is because a very hard dog that gets correction around the neck will only fight harder. Another reason is because it turns the dog away from the decoy and speeds the recall. Again, you completely missed my point. I understand e collars just fine, thank you. I own several myself. No one is talking about fucking Belgium, or very hard dogs, or anything you are talking about at all. I said that it was to correct a crooked platz, and that it involved a group of sick fucks laughing at a dog who was too scared to move a muscle. This has NOTHING to do with any legitimate training reason to use multiple ecollars. Why is it that you are so quick to defend your precious sport at all costs? Can you truly not believe that there are genitally-underdeveloped assholes out there who like to torture dogs in the name of points? No one said everyone is like this; it was merely an example brought up, and I find your knee-jerk defense of all "sport people" at all costs a bit disturbing, frankly. I thought sport people LIKED dogs....
They say the dogs are too "high-drive" to live in the house;
You probably saw French line Malinios that are bred for absoulte rediculous drive. My dog I have now comes down from some of the best French lines. I guarantee you 100% you could not and would not want my dog living in your house. They are not genetically imbalanced they are bred for a specific purpose; sport, police, and military work. They are not "pets" Just because a dog does not ive in a house does not mean they are not loved or do not have a good relationship with their handlers. Um, I have seen lots of Malinois. From totally different breedings, bred for completely different purposes. I would hazard a guess that I have interacted with Malinois unlike any you have encountered...not saying you would like these dogs, but just that they exist. Ridiculous is spelled with an "i" by the way. Anyway...you seem to think I just fell off the turnip truck yesterday (I love that expression, don't you guys?). My point was that no matter how shitty these people are at training, they blame the dogs. Living in a house doesn't mean shit. Only my 6lb dogs live in the house. The other 5 don't. I stand by my assessment that you die-hards don't care about temperament; you care about points. I have seen plenty of unbalanced dogs, and even more of you people who will defend them at all costs...I find it very sad. You don't truly care if the dog is balanced or not; THAT is my point.
by Jenni78 on 23 February 2009 - 17:02
You simply want to win. I feel bad for the dogs who are bred to be what they are, and then punished for it their entire lives b/c someone has a tiny penis and enjoys torturing animals in a crowd. You really need to stop thinking you know anything about my knowledge level; you're making yourself look a bit dense. How can you honestly defend the scenario I saw and cited on this board? Seriously.
allowed anyone to physically "whale on" any of my dogs.
I bet you are talking about some of the stick work in FR. Um, no. Not even close. But good guess! Actually, if you could read and follow a thought pattern, you would've understood "whaling on" to mean the "whaling on" that someone said happened to some PP dogs, and COULD HAVE POSSIBLY HAPPENED TO INGES. I would never equate "whaling on" with sport. What a joke. Well guess what that is part of the sport. Ring 3 stick work is no joke, and is not supposed to be. LOL. Really? I always found it funny. Like those dogs aren't conditioned to that. Like any of actually see the guy in the bitesuit with the stick as a REAL THREAT. Please. It's a sport; the dogs know the drill, the handlers know the drill...and the decoy knows the drill. We are supposed to be testing these dogs and the sport dictates the decoy is to try and prevent the dog from biting as well as testing their resolve. That is what the sport is. sorry if you do not like it. I wasn't talking about FR at all. Jesus! Again, I need to reiterate; the only reason the two letters "FR" were brought up is because that story happened to be on a FR field. A field owned by a very good friend of mine. No other reason. Ok???
If you are talking about physical correction. ???This is not a sentence, so I don't know how to respond. Again the types of dogs you have no comprehention of what they are. ???Again, not a sentence, and I don't understand it. What do you mean? Do you mean the types of dogs I have HAVE no comprehenSion? But of what? And when did you meet my dogs? I'm sure they'd remember someone like you, but I asked them all and they don't recall. I don't train like that but I do not have a dog that is hard enough to warrant it either. If you go to France, Belgium, or Holland Many trainers there do kick the shit out of there dogs. Why? Because many of these dog will flat eat you if you give them an inch. Again, dogs you have no comprehension of. LOL. I think you may be a tad surprised to find out what my "comprehension" level of dogs is.Dogs bred to serve a purpose and sorry if you don't agree with that purpose. But who the hell are you on your high horse? I personally think people who want these "pets" are the ones who "FUCK UP" these majestic animals, but hey whatever floats your boat. LMAO. You are agreeing with me, but you are too blind to realize it. Did I ever say they should be pets? Please cite where I said anything of the sort. Why is it that there are only two choices as to where I might stand? You obviously don't know me, so how can you say I like "pets"? Just because I refuse to breed animals that are so unbalanced they have no place in the world except going between their car crate and a kennel, except for Sunday's training sessions? Why can't you take my words at face value, understand my point, and accept that sport people, like any other people, run the gamut as far as what they find acceptable means of treatment for dogs. It's not rocket science.
allowed anyone to physically "whale on" any of my dogs.
I bet you are talking about some of the stick work in FR. Um, no. Not even close. But good guess! Actually, if you could read and follow a thought pattern, you would've understood "whaling on" to mean the "whaling on" that someone said happened to some PP dogs, and COULD HAVE POSSIBLY HAPPENED TO INGES. I would never equate "whaling on" with sport. What a joke. Well guess what that is part of the sport. Ring 3 stick work is no joke, and is not supposed to be. LOL. Really? I always found it funny. Like those dogs aren't conditioned to that. Like any of actually see the guy in the bitesuit with the stick as a REAL THREAT. Please. It's a sport; the dogs know the drill, the handlers know the drill...and the decoy knows the drill. We are supposed to be testing these dogs and the sport dictates the decoy is to try and prevent the dog from biting as well as testing their resolve. That is what the sport is. sorry if you do not like it. I wasn't talking about FR at all. Jesus! Again, I need to reiterate; the only reason the two letters "FR" were brought up is because that story happened to be on a FR field. A field owned by a very good friend of mine. No other reason. Ok???
If you are talking about physical correction. ???This is not a sentence, so I don't know how to respond. Again the types of dogs you have no comprehention of what they are. ???Again, not a sentence, and I don't understand it. What do you mean? Do you mean the types of dogs I have HAVE no comprehenSion? But of what? And when did you meet my dogs? I'm sure they'd remember someone like you, but I asked them all and they don't recall. I don't train like that but I do not have a dog that is hard enough to warrant it either. If you go to France, Belgium, or Holland Many trainers there do kick the shit out of there dogs. Why? Because many of these dog will flat eat you if you give them an inch. Again, dogs you have no comprehension of. LOL. I think you may be a tad surprised to find out what my "comprehension" level of dogs is.Dogs bred to serve a purpose and sorry if you don't agree with that purpose. But who the hell are you on your high horse? I personally think people who want these "pets" are the ones who "FUCK UP" these majestic animals, but hey whatever floats your boat. LMAO. You are agreeing with me, but you are too blind to realize it. Did I ever say they should be pets? Please cite where I said anything of the sort. Why is it that there are only two choices as to where I might stand? You obviously don't know me, so how can you say I like "pets"? Just because I refuse to breed animals that are so unbalanced they have no place in the world except going between their car crate and a kennel, except for Sunday's training sessions? Why can't you take my words at face value, understand my point, and accept that sport people, like any other people, run the gamut as far as what they find acceptable means of treatment for dogs. It's not rocket science.
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