Schutzhund will die, and GSD people won’t stop it…… - Page 9

Sunshine- I'm funny about who works my dog also and this was something I was told and taught very early on before Agar got off the plane.  Because I'm new and he was my first dog this made me even more paranoid about who I was gonna trust.  I just was very lucky in trusting my gutt instinct when I made the decission on who was "worthy" of working my dog.  But sometimes if you've been misguided or someone represented themselves well leading you to believe they know what they're doing-when in fact they don't know sqwat it can be tragic to a newbie and their prized dog.  I've heard many many horror stories so this makes me extra cautious.

at first i really wanted to make some comments about this thread,, then i realized how silly the conversation was,, as long as i am alive i will always be raising and training my dogs in schutzhund,,,i know i am not alone in this thinking, just one small voice of the many schutzhund people in the USA, many of which dont respond on boards,

Hey even if it does(NOT) we still have PSA, K9-pro sport, and all the versions of ring sport to look forward too!

john

John- No one was saying one shouldn't raise or train their dogs for schutzhund....in fact I think many stated the contrary.  What was merely stated is that most clubs- can't speak for all but most clubs are not as "friendly" or "welcoming" to new comers as they should in order to keep people's interest and belief that schutzhund is the way to go.  The conversation wasn't "silly" but quite matter of fact and really why sugar coat it?  My feelings about having a schutzhund dog are the same as most enthusiasts, the point that was being made and maybe you missed it was that you don't HAVE to belong to a club to own a schutzhund dog or even to train one at that.  There's a lot of people that buy their dogs already titled and just have fun with the dog.  Other's who don't want to be bothered with the club scene train their dogs themselves and send them out to get their titles when that's something they want to do.  The point that was trying to be made was that weather you want to participate just for the fun for you and your dog or weather you want to compete more seriously clubs should be more adaptable to understand that not everyone necessarily is there with the same exact goal in mind BUT they are all there for the same reason-because this is something they all enjoy.  I don't think anyone was knocking the sport itself but simply the way that it gets presented.

Agar,  Once again praises for your thoughts !!!   I think you appropriated exactly what the "Point" of the threads intention was.

John,  I love the sport,  but I can tell you for sure,  If I was not in the club I am in,  if I had met some of the nastyness I have met on this board out on a field,  I would have just walked away,  It would NOT have been worth it,  Hell I've thought of stopping working for titles all together at times because of the BS that goes on here on this board.   I know I NEVER would have tollerated being treated like that face to face....

and if this board was the ONLY representation of SchH sport goers.... well you get the idea now  !

Since I do not participate in Schutzhund, I probably should not comment, but I will anyway, cause I can

Two years ago, I retired, bought three imported showlines from W. Germany, three months old each.  I have always loved the GSD and having time on my hands, and money like I never had before, I decided that my retirement hobby would be to raise, train and breed GSD's for fun and profit.

I moved to a new home with ten acres, fenced into five sections, with kennels and in the middle of nowhere.  It was beautiful and just right for what I wanted to do.  I got my two females and my male from very nice showlines, and did all I could to prepare them for good growth and development.  I read and learned all I could about the GSD.  I already knew a lot about dogs in general but never "specialized".  I had trained military dogs and personal protection dogs after the military, but almost always training someones already owned dog that they wanted trained to protect them and their families.

Reading and studying everything I could get my hands on concerning the GSD, I decided that I MUST get into Schutzhund, so I visited the nearest Schutzhund club (Cincinnati club but actually met and trained over the Ohio river in Kentucky).  I took my best (IMO), three month old pup to the club.  Immediately I was met with disdain because I had a showline GSD puppy.  NO testing, no socialization, no nothing other than, "Oh, you have a showline", " I suggest you get a workingline dog so you do not waste your time".  These words were from the president of this club, and echoed by other senior members of this club, throughout the day.  I also was not impressed with the dogs they were working.  Rather average or below, in the "appearance" department, and not well trained or behaved.  One senior member did have a seven year old that was not bad, but all in all, I was not impressed with their seasoned dogs being worked that day.

I left knowing that I was not going to go into schutzhund.  Not impressive, too political, and the disdain for my pup was so obvious, that I was embarrassed, even though the pup had not been tested in any way.  The pup did not act fearful, timid nor unruly at all.  He was a typical three month old showline pup.

I then just stuck to myslef and trained my dogs in obedience, and decided to forget bite training as I had no need for it, and truth be told, I was soured on bite training while working for American K9 previously, and seeing the mistakes that owners of protection trained dogs constantly made with their dogs, which could have resulted in harm to innocents by the trained dogs.  Yes, the owners had been trained also, how to handle and care for and with their newly trained dogs, but most were idiots before I trained them and only became slightly less idiotic afterwards.

I enjoy my dogs.  I do not care about schutzhund either way, and do not care if it falls by the wayside or flourishes, but I believe the flipfinish has it about right.  His initial posting is very insightful, from what I have experienced, read and heard (and I read EVERYTHING).

I will admit to one thing though.  If I had it to do all over again, I would have started with working lines.  The difference is like a showline is a Ford and the workingline is a Buick.  There is a difference, but not so much that the Cincinnati club should have disdained my pup, without even giving it and me a chance.  Maybe just a bad club.  Maybe just a bad day, or maybe just an ingrained prejudice towards showlines.  I think that it is the latter.

I don't consider this to be a silly conversation at all. I think most are missing the point here. If I understood Flip he was correctly trying to stress to the GSD lovers here the danger of wasting energy arguing about working vs show and other personal clashes that are so common on this board. There may no choice in the future. If the AR people and their backers have their way, Schutzhund and all other mansports will be nothing more than fond memories.

There needs to be a grassroot effort to stand together to demonstrate to the public that Sch is not just a bunch of aggressive dog handlers with aggressive dogs. Months ago I get shot down here for suggesting that videos showing dogs out of control biting people might not be the greatest idea for a place like U Tube and other internet sites. Videos showing dog being seriously injured while doing Sch and trainers using multiple e-collars on one dogs, e-collars on wet dogs, flanking, table training, etc does not belong on the internet.  We are quicklyh becoming our own worst enemies just to show the world how tough dogs and trainers can be.  I might be best to check the testosterone at the door and keep these kinds ofvideos private. I was told to buzz off I have  hidden agendas and they will show their dogs doing whatever they damne well want to show them doing. 

Here's a big dose of reality - keep it up and Sch is going to be banned in the US and it won't matter how many want to do it. It will have to be taken underground and it won't take long for those of you who enjoy the hobby to be put in the same box as Michael Vick. Think about it......

Flip, my apologoes if I have misunderstood you intent. I don't mean to put words into your mouth.

IMO, the bottom line is that if we keep running enthusiastic new people out of the sport because they show up at the local club with a less-than-stellar dog, as most of us do/did, the sport will suffer. A person can learn a lot with just about any dog they bring to the field. As long as the dog is not dangerous to others, I will help them go as far as they can with it. Hopefully, they will get "hooked" on the sport and someday get a more talented dog they can enjoy greater success with.

SS

Very well said! .....If someone is sincere and enthusiastic, I don't care if they have a three legged dog with no teeth, I'll give them as much help as I possibly can.

Do Right- It's a shame that your first experience with a club was laid out that way for you and you're probably right that had it not worked out that way you may be doing schutzhund right now.  Here's how it was all presented to me and some of what I experienced first hand....I'll be honest when I got my dog selected and shipped to me I really had no idea what he really was all about other than he was a titled male suitable for true personal protection and great with a family and a nice pedigree behind him.  Since I knew maintaining the training and getting myself the assistance to handle my own dog I felt a club was the way I needed to go.  At the time titles really weren't my top priority-learning what I had and how to use it was.  First club I spoke to near me told me they did not feel their club would benefit me for what I needed since I had a working line and their dogs are showlines.  Hmmm I thought, interesting.  So I scratched them off my list.  Next experience was being invited to a club much further away from me but from what I had heard was probably where I would have preferred to be BUT after finding out that a particular member of that club was a back stabber and shit starter (we won't get into names) I elected to pass on that one altogether because I knew this would just end up all bad eventually.  Next stop was a nice little club not far from me at all and I gotta tell ya it was a pleasant experience being there, people were very very nice, really loved my dog and were good to us but for whatever reason things never transpired (maybe we just weren't the right "fit" for them) but it was a nice first impression and presentation of what schutzhund is all about and what they do at a club setting.  I even took several private lessons there that gave me a much better understanding of what I needed to learn-the person teaching was FABULOUS for a new person-extremely thorough and patient.  Probably the only reason I didn't continue there was that I did not want to train privately with one person but then have to so somewhere else to do the protection part.

Now my next experience will probably no surprise many of you but it will disturb you enough that for those that are still "non believers" will get the jist of why new people get a bad taste in their mouths early on....I won't discuss who the person was or what club it was because the intent of my post is not to start a massive lynching and thread hijacking about who I'm referring to because many of you know this person and don't care for their practices (I did not know this at the time).

Someone had been reading my posts and contacted me via email-long story short we were invited to come out to their place so they could 'evaluate' my dog....it was very very far from us but we thought what the hell let's take a drive.