A discussion on kennel blindness - Page 9

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Jeff has espoused the idea of bringing Malinois blood into the GSD to improve working ability as well as soundness, and while that may have merit to those ends, it is not in keeping with producing purebred dogs as the various registries in the world define such.

Really ? I did ? Where ? I like Mals, and I like GSD. I will leave the cross breeding to the Dutch, as they have it down to a science.

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Jeff Oehlson has come to your defense in this discussion, and has apparently seen and worked your dogs, but I notice that Jeff--who I know has no love for any registry, and little use for SchH, and who does raise valid issues regarding each--DOES have the basic health certifications done on his dogs.

A registry is just that, a registry. For me, working people got the short end of the stick, as we pay all this money to AKC and get f*** all for it. They make (made) a lot of money, and cop out and blame anything that goes wrong on the breed clubs, all of which grovel to them. Thus, with one nicely worded letter, the AKC could put an end to all manner of foolishness. 

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Frankly, the lack of titles isn't a deal breaker in my book,

Hutch is a good solid dog. I really like Daryl, but as a dog trainer he has trouble putting the theory into practice. HA HA Sooooo many people fall into this catagory. Hutch is the type of dog that learns despite his flaws at training. He bites very very well. 

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It's the failure to verify health status, and the breeding of underage animals, and the in-breeding without sufficient evidence of what you'll be amplifying--as well as why--that I find troublesome, especially when you then offer these pups for sale to the public.

Hip ratings in Europe are not as stringent as they are in the US. Many people have used this fact to get a rating with dogs that would not quite get ofa fair. No one mentions that. In France, a C rating might not pass ofa. No one mentions that, as it does not help their arguements. There are fantastic working dogs out there that do not fit peoples vision of the all mighty hip rating, and they are producing very very nice working dogs, and have been for decades. No one mentions that, as it does not help their arguements.

A hip rating shows you what THAT DOGS HIPS have been rated at. It says nothing about what the dog will produce, and there is nothing out there saying otherwise, it is assumption. 

Where is it documented that breeding a dog that is not a specific age is the ruination of the breed ? Where is it documented that the Holy Grail age of two is now assuring everyone that yes, yes, this dog will now produce better than it would at 18 months ? 

There is none. There is nothing out there saying that, it is all just hearsay.

Where can I find the manual that tells me how to gather sufficient evidence that what I amplify will be an improvement ??

There is none. Every arguement that is made against his breeding practice is worthless and weak. 

It is a shame that people are so afraid of breeding. There is nothing that will tell you if a breeding will be successful. I have seen enough dogs with fantastic pedigrees that were complete and utter duds. I have owned them. I had a bitch that while a great dog to have if you want a house dog, and pet, was a complete embarrassment to her pedigree. With that pedigree, she should have been able to produce fireballs from her eyes killing thousands.

I have seen a dog that was 25x Sch3 that, at the moment that I saw him bite, defined the term sleeve sucker for me completely, the dog just held on and flopped about as the helper moved. Might as well been a leech, there was so little life in the dog on the bite.

I can tell you that Hutch has some juice. He does not just bite and flop around. 

Jeff, really????  let's see the video of Hutch's bitework.  He might very well be a nice dog with an owner that can not bring out his potential properly.  It seems Daryl relies on what Koos has done in his decades of breeding.  That alone does not mean that every Tiekerhook dog should be bred.  Pedigree and one day of some bite work, even if the dog has "juice" does not make him stud worthy in my book.  A dog with juice that can hold up to years of training and still perform well and maintain that intensity, despite a bungling handler with excellent hips may be a candidate for a stud. 

One or two bite sessions with little or no pressure means nothing to me.  Show me the dog after 3 years of serious training in bitework, obedience and some detection work or tracking then I may be impressed. 

 

"The best and most beautiful things can not be seen nor touched but must be felt by the heart"-Helen Keller-

What breeder exactly doesn't rely on the decades of work that preceded theirs?  Your argument is worthless.  You'd be quite impressed with that 25x SchH3 dog mentioned, by the sound of it.

I am not sure what it is you want me to say Jim. I do not need all that to say I would breed a dog, but you do. Ok.

How about this, start a thread asking people to show their breeding program that has not added in a EU dog in 5 generations. People that have produced their own stud dogs, and brood bitches.

Maybe make it easier, how about a breeder that has 5 generations of working dogs that has not used a EU dog since the beginning ?

There seems to be a lot of opinion on breeding by people that do not breed, and have only bought pups from EU bred dogs. EVEN then, there are all the threads on here about how the dog did not work out, had overbites, and horrible hips. 

How is it that so many have so much faith in titled dogs with hip ratings from EU countries, but no faith in anyone from the US that does things differently ?

I have read thread after thread after thread after thread on this forum about dogs that didn't work out from europe. At some point, you would think that people would be sick of paying the freight. I guess not.

I think that a lot of times people who have "good results" just do not post as much as they do not have anything to complain about :)  So just because you read about "bad dogs" and "problems" doesnt mean that there aren't just as many people or many more who are happy with their dogs and have no problems!  

Although I personally PREFER USA Born/Bred dogs as long as they are breed worthy (and TO ME that means titled/health tested).  I am extremely proud of my SG SchH1 Kkl1 female who is 3rd generation USA born/bred on her mother's side and 2nd generation USA born/bred on her father's side.  But her parents, grandparents are all titled and health tested too :) I have a lot of faith in USA breeders who do things the way I feel they should be done.  There are plenty of them and some of them are producing super nice dogs!  

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Jeff has espoused the idea of bringing Malinois blood into the GSD to improve working ability as well as soundness, and while that may have merit to those ends, it is not in keeping with producing purebred dogs as the various registries in the world define such.

Really ? I did ? Where ? I like Mals, and I like GSD. I will leave the cross breeding to the Dutch, as they have it down to a science.


Jeff, I apologize if I'm mistaken about that--there's a scant few working enthusiasists on this and other GSD forums who have suggested the breed could benefit from an infusion of working-line Mal blood while retaining registration eligibility during discussions about the problems in the GSD and the watering-down of SchH, and I thought I remembered your being in agreement with Christopher Smith, with whom you appear to have many commonalities (interest/background/involvement/ with/in working line GSDs and Malinois, ringsport, and so forth).  

 

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I have a lot of faith in USA breeders who do things the way I feel they should be done.  There are plenty of them and some of them are producing super nice dogs!

Plenty of them. Name some and lets see how far from the EU tree these nuts fell.

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Jeff, I apologize if I'm mistaken about that--there's a scant few working enthusiasists on this and other GSD forums

Yes, because most people are just repeaters with no experience. Smart breeders and working dog people stay off this uneducation fest.  HA HA HA HA  Sorry, couldn't resist.

I am sure that there is Mal blood in some of the Czech line GSDs. I have one from eurosport that there is no way that there is not Mal in there. Christopher Smith and I rarely agree on anything other than the fact that we do not agree. I do not like Mals enough to put them into the GSD, and I do not like GSDs enough to put them into Mals. I do get curious about odd breeding concepts, that is for sure. I am not a man of strong faith when it comes to dog people "improving" anything at all. I have yet to see any breeder here in the states whose lines slowly got worse and worse and worse..... unless they went back to EU and there you have it.

I do see it as a business practice, strong dogs are not going to sell, as there are so many more girls doing sport, and nothing, NOTHING, cracks me up more than hearing of some high scoring dog being handled by a girl described as POWERFUL ! STRONG ! INTENSE ! ! ! !  But that is just me, as I have seen these dogs and no. Not any of the things they said they were, just an average dog made stronger by a weak handler. Which takes us back to Kennel blindness.

I DO NOT THINK EUROSPORT WOULD APPRECIATE THAT POST!

THEY HAVE A GREAT REPUTATION FOR BEING HONEST BREEDERS/TRAINERS/SELLERS!

Me ? I just said I had little faith, and even less in the Czech breeders. Tito hardly acts like a GSD at all. he is a nice dog, but has way way too many Mal traits. Besides, where you there for all the breedings ? HA HA Nope, you were not. 

I have seen Mal GSD Xs that looked exactly like GSDs, and way more than one time. No way to prove it really, but there is Tito acting like a Mal out in my kennel. He is a good dog, but purebred GSD ? I call bullshit.