Sieger show in Canada - Page 9

Had to leave the house for a few hours, but am working on translation now. 

Hello Everyone.....

Let me clear a couple of things up.

1'st  Jaz was not dismissed.  I volentary pulled him from the show for several reasons, as I have done so prior. I had a nice conversation with the judge, as he said some very nice things about the dog.  Everyone inside the ring and outside the ring watched.   I went to Canada, showed off his bitework, and then I made the decision to pull the dog.  He could have stayed in and received a very high V rating I was told, but I opted out, to handle another dog.  The other dog was not in the ring upon my return.  Also Jaz has a remarkable show history.

Also the judge did not measure any dog while it was stacked.  Even when handlers tried to stack the dog he would have you walk the dog a step.  Very good.  I like the judge, and have found sucess under him before.

People are upset its plain to see.  I know that there were some important communication problems.  As my info comes from a high ranking show official. 

Randy,  I too think we are all friends, I have handled for you several times, and you have heard many judges remark about my handling.  That alone keeps the sport fun for me.  You are more then entitled to post your opinions on what it is that you saw.  BUt I see your Statement as a touch misleading.  We tried several things to ensure that he had a chance of a VA but it wasn't going to be that day..  I also find your Statement about Roxi to be a little misleading as well.  I also will inform you that you would find it not to be to your advantage to speak further on that matter here.  You have my phone number & Email. 

I hope everyone who is pissed gets relaxed, and now has perhaps a better understerstanding of the happenings of the show. 

. 

WOW!!!!!  Some very unhappy campers here!!!! 

Well I was there for most of the show, unfortunately missed the bitework, but did catch most of the show part.  I was a bit shocked at the scrutiny of the measuring..and sad to see some very beautiful dogs penalized for being "over"..it is very hard to "see"  that "extra" cm or two ....but we do have  a "STANDARD" and I think in the past years there have been many  "over" winners and since so many people FLOCK to the winners, I guess THEY  (SV) feel the  time has come to "enforce" the standard.  I guess it   IS the only way to keep up on our toes to breed to "STANDARD", but I can sympathize with the disappointment to  follow, by many.....It's like when you have  a LH that just happens to have the BEST  structure, drives and temperament in the litter and he is not allowed into the gene pool  because even though his coat is double , it's  a little longer  than desired/allowed.

Regarding the show, I think it was run very well, although I always wonder why people don't have their dogs ready for the ring when they know they are up next  AND the sausages/lunch  were EXCELLENT!!!

The working judge,  Inge B, is well known for her fair accessment and judging, so I am not sure what went down there.

The female working class was just beautiful.........hard  to choose which  was the nicest...as for  the males,  well they were just stunning.every single one of them!!!  Hoss and son Nick  I thought rather special.......beautiful dogs and so nice to see father and son both Va'ing in the same show.!!!!  I really enjoyed  seeing Ronaldo "live",  what a beautiful  and well balanced male........a well deserved placing indeed!

I t will be interesting  to see what happens at the BSZS 2007.....I am sure there will be some major upsets or dogs not entered..........

Louise,  I know and like you very much, you have a lot of knowledge in you about the  breed and have been around a long time.....please  remember that your  country has many people of German origin that have been there for many generations, but if  these are "our" roots and  as most of us (even ME) were not even born yet then, perhaps politics are best left out ........a nation cannot be blamed for  its political roots.

Have fun in Show and Sport... and let's focus on breeding our dogs to meet and keep the standard , and work together to make it so.

Michele

While my friends of German origin may have misunderstood my analogy that was intended as purely as a figure of speech (i.e., where there is smoke, there may be fire--not just some kids just playing with smoke signals), the point I'm trying to get across is that I admire people with the courage of their convictions to speak out against improprieties/inequities-- just as it is unpopular and involves risks to be a "whistleblower" or good samaritan.

IMO, if the height limit is to be enforced and all dogs are to be measured, there should be no partiality because a dog has previously been rated VA or has a good progeny group.

As I posted earlier: "There will be much more effective communication if the Canadian website will consider listing all dogs that were entered in the catalog, which ones were actually shown, those pulled/absent/excused--along with their performance test ratings ("pronounced' or otherwise--T1 through T4). Adding the names of the sires/dams/owners would also be educational."

As for NBW Herr Meyer's statement that he would allow a dog's performance test to factor into the dog's show placing, I feel sort of ambivalent about that (just as how should a dog's performance in a breed survey the day before a breed show affect the dog's placing at the show--two separate events). Many of the show ring placements are largely dependent on the dog's presentation and effective double handling--as well as an occasional bit of political clout. Besides, all dogs in the working classes have not been in the breed survey the day before a breed show.

At NASS 2006, a judge who expressed feeling a bit uncomfortable about awarding a VA rating to a dog of his own breeding said that he did so because the other judges were favorably impressed with the dog's performance test. My problem is that the judges don't usually see the performance tests of all the dogs. Many of the judges have left the performance testing field before the tests are over and have proceeded to the evaluations in the stand exam ring.

In other words, I believe that the noble motives behind Herr Meyer's statement cannot be achieved on a thoroughly level playing field because an assortment of impracticalities and time contraints creates an inevitable bias.

I will confess that my own dogs' excellent performance routines have never had an impact on their show placements.

OK Louise, you are forgiven......  And I didn't  let you know yet either that  one of my males out of my  V Gerro vom Kirschental and  my V Occa vom Kirschental ,  Blaise (Zane) vom Alpenhof placed VP3 in the  9-12 months class males....right behind one of Teejay's boys!!!!  That was nice to see for a raw kid  never in a show before......I thank the owner for having the guts to put  him in,  in spite of little prep work. 

On another note,  it has been brought to my attention that the female working class result is not quite correct on the website.

The last two females should  read "SG1 and SG2".  What I heard was 2 VA females ,  5 V's and 2 SGs.....

Wonder what that  is all about ?!?!?!!?!

Michele

Just call me "ausgepräght"--outspoken! I know that I have been speaking to rectifying issues that will never affect me personally--or my dogs. Surely, I will always to make excuses for these factors in my own dogs (that is, if they are ever shown again): their bitework will always be exemplary--they will never be measured as oversized.

I don't know how Carl managed to "pull" his dog after doing his bitework. I thought that pulling a dog required a statement from a veterinarian. Heck, if there is ever another Sieger-type show on the West Coast, it would be the thrill of a lifetime to do the performance tests with both of my boys--and then pull them from the balance of the competition. I surely could not have them both in the same class in the show ring. One, I couldn't double the two of them. Two, there might be a sibling rivalry massacre!

I just wish that the Canadian webside would be amended to remove various areas of confusion. I do hate seeing people getting the short end of the stick--so to speak.

Michele, congratulations on your pup's placement! You and I have long discussed the "nerve" element and oversized dogs--you know my feelings.

That's "pronounced"  Louise.........good comparison thought!!!!!!

I thank you for your kind words and yes we have and we will continue to do so

Michele

Silbersee,Please,re-read my statement abouyt Ronaldo,I did not say he was a female. I said ,Ranoldo he is deffently 65 cm.right. Now compare him to all the other dogs in that show.he looked like a female compared to some.Meaning Ranoldo was the correct hieght, and that the others looked much bigger.I did not slam Ronaldo. He's a very nice male, and Randy has done a great job with him.

About the measuring, If a platform isn't the fix, Why ,I don't know. So then this next statement should get a responce. Why not have the judge and a helper stand and measure the dogs. Now the handler is out of the pic.

Hoss has multiple VA awards in the US, as well as very respectable placements in the German Sieger Show.  He has presented very impressive progeny groups on several occassions.  He always does pronounced bite work.  The dog's ring presentation is impeccable. 

He is 5 years old and ready to retire from the show circuit.  In the old order, there can be little argument that he deserved the Sieger title.

These statements are true.

But  Hoss is a big boy.  Under the new order, Hoss might have been given the option to withdraw from the ring.

Or sent to the back. So your telling us that it is OK that Hoss is to big, But all other dogs would be pulled or sent to the back.well that's fare

I think Hoss is a very nice dog, good substance, great bite work. and more.I like his size.So then under the new world order, your telling me Hoss and other big males will get sent to the back of the line , Right?

Let's see how many of the top males in the German sieger show this year get there walking papers.Will the SV inforce there decision? Will see.Do you beleive they will. I don't.

  One more question , that no one has answerd still. Why was the judge switched for the bite work.Can one of you please tell me.

Silbersee,Please,re-read my statement abouyt Ronaldo,I did not say he was a female. I said ,Ranoldo he is deffently 65 cm.right. Now compare him to all the other dogs in that show.he looked like a female compared to some.Meaning Ranoldo was the correct hieght, and that the others looked much bigger.I did not slam Ronaldo. He's a very nice male, and Randy has done a great job with him.

About the measuring, If a platform isn't the fix, Why ,I don't know. So then this next statement should get a responce. Why not have the judge and a helper stand and measure the dogs. Now the handler is out of the pic.

Hoss has multiple VA awards in the US, as well as very respectable placements in the German Sieger Show.  He has presented very impressive progeny groups on several occassions.  He always does pronounced bite work.  The dog's ring presentation is impeccable. 

He is 5 years old and ready to retire from the show circuit.  In the old order, there can be little argument that he deserved the Sieger title.

These statements are true.

But  Hoss is a big boy.  Under the new order, Hoss might have been given the option to withdraw from the ring.

Or sent to the back. So your telling us that it is OK that Hoss is to big, But all other dogs would be pulled or sent to the back.well that's fare

I think Hoss is a very nice dog, good substance, great bite work. and more.I like his size.So then under the new world order, your telling me Hoss and other big males will get sent to the back of the line , Right?

Let's see how many of the top males in the German sieger show this year get there walking papers.Will the SV inforce there decision? Will see.Do you beleive they will. I don't.

  One more question , that no one has answerd still. Why was the judge switched for the bite work.Can one of you please tell me.

Steve,

If you go back a few posts and read the rules. You will see the rules say the trial judge judges the trial and the show judge judges the show. There was never any switch in the judging. It's always been announced Mr. Seifert was the judge and as the show judge was scheduled to judge the performance test. Simply put there was no switch.

I'll sum up my contribution to this thread by saying from the information posted about the sieger show and the accusations made against the judge and the club, the allgations are unfounded and apoligies are owed. We may never agree on all the issues posted here. Certainly some are still convinced one way or the other and enough has been discussed that all points have been made. As always in this type of discussion remember, this is an international website, your knowledge about the breed, rules that affect the breed, the current interpretation of the rules, your reputation as a sportsman are all on display for the world to see. It's wise to choose your fights carefully as there's no 'edit' button on this website.

So, for the issues we may not see eye to eye on, let's agree to disagree and move on. I ask this be done with one thought in mind. When we enter these shows we sign a entry form that says we agree to abide by some basic rules. One of the rules is the judges decision is final. If we are unhappy with the judges decision there are options that can be exercised outside the internet that produce long lasting changes. We should not go on the internet and question a judges decision.  If we continue to do so, I'm afraid the SV judges will  kindly decline to judge our events as they really don't need to be criticized show after show.