P.E.T. G.S.D - Page 3

I see nothing wrong with titled dogs or untitled, whatever floats your boat....i think the point some of or trying to make is ...it's not acurate or fair to look down at a dog just because he/she is not titled....no Im not planning on breeding nor do I do sports...but that does not mean my dog is not capable of it........

IT is a WORKING dog...but what some do not see is that the JOB has changed....these days, when you say GSD, the majorty of people do not say, "yeah bob, thats a great breed to herd your sheep.."...  BOB does not have sheep anymore...he has kids......they will more likely say..."Yeah bob, that dog will be a great protector for your wife and kids while you are gone offshore, or on another long haul, OR off to war......"

Im not saying TITLES are useless...if you have the time and money, its great to get to do that with your dog, i would love to just for the fun of it.....and who would'nt want the brag of saying, "yeah, my dog won this and that..."   All im saying is, should I not be just as proud to say.."My dog ran the bad guy out of the yard?"...or ..."My dog lays his head on my kids feet when they are crying, begging them to feel better?".....just because there is no judge there to put a medal around his neck, does that mean what he does is not important?

Why is the title of  "Loyal family protector" not as good as " SCH" ?

now, remember, Im not talking about breeding....for that i understand the need for titles or the other stuff.....Its kinda like brand-name clothes, they cost more because that brand of clothing has proven they were made well, they earn a name for themelves, therefor, you know it's less likely that shirt will fall apart aftrer a few washings.....

Is a loyal family petsuch a bad thing? Should'nt breeders be proud to say..'this breed can do it all?"

Should'nt the dogs that are safe around kids be considered the BEST dogs? Sure, daddy can handle that dog out on the field...but can daddy leave that dog in the house with his wife and kids and not have to worry about the dog itself being the danger?.....Is the fact that my kids can pull my dog by his tail or step on his feet, and he turns around and licks them for it...isn't that the MOST important test itself for a FAMILY pet? 

I just think its wrong to judge a dog because it is not titled, when a dog has not been placed before you to be judged...there is no need for it, those who live with the dog are the only judges who matter...I think "LOYAL FAMILY PROTECTOR" is a honorable title, no one should ASSUME my dog is crap because of it....

I have said before, my dog is capable of it all...it is me who is not......judge me, not my dog...

von symphoni---

I think the one thing missing here is a person's definition of "pet quality"

iluvmyGSD.....  Very well put!!!  Best post I have seen on here in a while!

The danger I see in not titling dogs prior to breeding them is that it sends the wrong message to the newbies. Longtime GSD fanciers can most likley make a good breeding decision based on the qualities of the animals alone, not the titles. However, newbies can't so they will follow suit by indescriminately breeding untitled dogs without breed surveys because "Blitzen does it so I can too". The longtime breeders are responsible for setting the bar. 

When there are so many GSD's languishing in rescues looking for homes I frankly cannot imagine that anyone wanting a nice companion can't find one from that population.  Why must it alwasy be a puppy if it is intended as a companion dog? These shelter dogs are usually mature dogs with their personalities already established, so there shouldn't be any surprises. Many GSD rescues have very capable associates who test these dogs prior to placing them.  A mature GSD can make a wonderful companion for any family.

We cannot have it both ways.  Either we believe that you get what you breed for (at best) or you don't.  You can't breed unworked, untitled dogs and say the pups are working dogs.  You can't breed stay-at-home un-shown dogs and say the pups are show dogs. 

And you can't breed for show or work and say the pups are pets.  Unless, of course, what you really mean by "pet" is "not up to my standard for what I am really breeding for."  You can't just claim that makes them great pets because it is convenient -- the breeding wasn't selecting for that.  They are either "working seconds" or "show seconds."  It is very convenient to say "pet quality" when you mean "failed to meet my working or show standards" but it is a euphemism, not the truth.

Pets, like working dogs and show dogs, can only be bred honestly by people who are selecting for pet qualities: unflappability, biddability, patience, medium-low drive, tolerance of children and animals, modest protectiveness, ability to endure the boring life of a dog without having to be crated or penned beyond puppyhood, and a great reluctance/inhibition to bite.  Which GSD breeder claims that?

Some people breed (select) for work and call their work seconds pets.

Some people breed (select) for show and call their show seconds pets.

Some people breed for absolutely nothing and call what comes out pets.

If someone was really breeding for the very best pet qualities (e.g., all 3's and 4's on Volhard, say, plus a few other important traits) they would deserve accolades, not criticism.

I think there should be an organization that certifies and titles dogs capable of producing great pets.  Perhaps then there would be less use of the word "pet" to mean "not up to my actual breeding standards, but this little life deserves a fair chance and I want some money for him."

thanks  ladywolf45169

Very well said Bucko.  I too am pushing for some kind of "pet Standard" for the GSD.  If I could produce GSD's that are for family companionship and not for sport or work, and can do it in a way that produces better "pets" than those that end up with "pet quality" show and working rejects and sell them as such, then I have done something very worthwhile.  There is no more nobler GSD than one who protects, comforts and loves my wife and kids.  Most schutzhund dogs do not, if for no other reason than insurance regulations and concerns.  Who here would let their children play with "Taz", the most titled dog in the world?

Yes, Capt. Stephanitz said that the GSD is a working dog, but he is from a hundred years ago and life moves on.  He was the founder, not the God of the breed.  There are many breeds that do not fulfill their original purpose, and have evolved into family pets and companions and other things.  Trust me on this, the GSD is on it's way out as a biting in sports dog.  Good or bad thing.  I think that would be a separate debate for another time, but everyone sees it coming and it has been discussed here many times.

In the everyday concerns of our current world situation, more families need GSD companions than need GSD's titled in a sport.  Of course, someone who has spent all the money and time obtaining titles, so that they can breed pups and sell them, will disagree.  And, of course someone that is breeding untitled dogs to sell the pups will take the obvious stance, but in reality, there is room for both camps to coexist in peace, instead of war.

If you only in only breeding titled GSD's, the customers will come.  If you believe in breeding only certified family companions, customer will come.  We just need some type of certification for them.  There are a couple of close test run by the AKC, but none quite fits the bill in my opinion.

Okay, where are those slings and arrows.  It's a Golden Day here in the mid west and I'm ready.

1 a: a pampered and usually spoiled child b: a person who is treated with unusual kindness or consideration : darling2: a domesticated animal kept for pleasure rather than utility

this is copied and pasted from miriam's online dictionary for "pet."   Working dog would clearly be harder to define unless you take a very generic backward approach to the "pet" definition and say "a domesticated animal that is kept for utility rather than pleasure."

clearly there is also an overlap, those who do schutzhund also obviously get "pleasure" from their dogs, at least hopefully and occasionally so.  And those who primarily keep a dog for pleasure do occasionally work their dogs be it in obedience, agility, flyball, herding, whatever.  This board obviously has a decided bend towards schutzhund, other boards have a distinct interest in other aspects.  Do right is certainly correct on the point that max always wanted the dog to be a working dog, (and that things change and move on) however, not many people in schutzhund do herding which is clearly the main work GSDs did long long ago, and I have heard a number of schh people poo-poo herding dogs as below their schh dogs.  I am not sure why there exists such a rift, but it is a decidedly human trait.

I don't understand why people think titled or actual working (SAR, service, etc.) dogs are somehow excluded from being tear licking pets? My friend breeds/trains bomb detection, personal protection, Sch dogs and usually has them lolling or playing around the house by the handsful! IMany of these are DDR or Czec lineage. I have absolutely let my kids play with his dogs. Don't know TAZ personally but certainly know "pets" I would never trust my kids around.  I've had my son fall asleep on their couch on a long visit and found him blanketed in high drive, serious dogs.  There are very drivey dogs that know when they're "on the job" and when they are not.

Pet and working are supposed to be the same thing.  Granted they aren't always but it should certainly be the goal, IMO, or yet another line will be added to the GSD. Working, Show, American and Pet. I don't see the need to dissect the breed.

There are many people on here who talk the talk but how maNy truly walk the walk?  I listen to so many who are importing and exporting dogs, keeping dogs exclusively in kennels and looking down their nose at anyone who doesn't, sending dogs overseas or across the country to be "trained".  Why do you want to maintain a breed of dog that you do nothing with other than title just to breed?  Or compete with a dog you paid to have trained?  Who and what are you breeding them for?  Isn't this just another puppy mill attitude on a smaller scale?  Those of you who berate people who are breeding "pets" need to take a step back and reevaluate what your motives are!  How many criminals do YOU take down with all of the titled dogs you own and breed?  How many of YOU have a herd of sheep that these dogs are watching over?  All of this high talk from so many but how many are really working their dogs? Should we ONLY breed them for the police, military, or to be service dogs?  Should the "rejects" not deserve a chance at a life full of happiness with a child or adult who will reciprocate love in some small, unnoticed by the world way?  Maybe a stupid title in AKC OB means more to a person who has built a relationship with a dog who shares their home than a titled bitch brought from overseas to be used for brood.  Are these beautiful, loyal, caring creatures just a means to an end for some of you or are they the end itself?  Take pride in all of the "hard" dogs you have and then such surprise and horror when one of those hard dogs takes a kids face off or worse yet KILLS a child and then you all scream that this is not what the breed is about.  CUT ME A BREAK!

I happen to agree that a "pet" can have one of the most important jobs of all, taking care of the family who so lovingly "works" with him and cares for him. I look at my relationship with my dogs as a journey, no matter where the road may lead.  As long as we are doing something TOGETHER, we seem to have gained a happiness that can't be gained from JUST a title.  We can't all be breeders and some of us have no desire to be.  We want loyal companions/friends who will take that journey by our sides with pride and some sense of accomplishment!  They have EARNED a place in a family, and if that's not work I don't know what is. 

Okay, now MY rant is over.