The Biggest Problem of the Breed: Nerves - Page 3

oh yeah....

what is the difference in....dominant/ hard/ strong nerves.....submissive/soft/ nervy?  do they all pretty much mean the same thing?

And my current dog will cower with "strong words" (even if not directed at her or angry - just forceful words like my husband screaming in happiness over Steelers), but hardly cares about getting hit with a riding crop or num-chucks (trainer tried to "threaten" her with these, lightly).  Is that "good nerve" to GS fanatics?

She's still poor character overall.  I live with her and I know.

Nonetheless, I love her.  ;-)

I have a feeling dominance is separate from hardness.  Just as it is NOT the same as "aggressive" or "unstable".  I think they are all in different categories of personality.

My old dog indeed was naturally dominant, but NOT aggressive (she would be "passive aggressive" and push dogs out of her way to get her food, toy, whatever - never growl and bite) and extremely stable.

Would like someone to explain about "hardness" relative to these factors.

Hi Cindy!  Great posts ;-)

I agree, when selecting for temperament, the breeder's ability to evaluate temperament is crucial.  It is easier to manipulate looks than temperament.

The thing about temperament, is all the "middle ground" between genetics and training.  There's alot of gray area, because the genes code for what the temperament is "predisposed" for or has the potential to become, and the mother's behavior and puppy-pack behaviors imprint and help shape much of what "will" become, and the training further refines it, by either reinforcing or concealing what "has" become.

Temperament may be fairly well "set" by 16 weeks, but that may not be always the case, and even a period of conditioning can literally reverse a normal behavior pattern.  This makes selection for temperament quite tricky.  An inexperienced eye won't always easily see what is actually there.  That's why a breeder's involvement in a working club is so important.  A breeder needs to be able to read a dog well, to continue breeding for given temperament preferences in a particular endeavor.

Some aspects are pretty solid in the genes, like "sound sensitivity", but there's a strong tendency to mistake sound-sensitivity for bad nerves, when it's actually a threshold issue.  Being sound sensitive isn't necessarily a negative thing in itself, "if" the dog recovers quickly by benefit of other temperament qualities.  Lower thresholds can be a matter of training preference, as long as the balance for immediate recovery is right.  More frequent association with sound-sensitivity is the shyness/nervousness that can result from it, so most times it's avoided by sport competitors, and has a likely potential for breeding disasters.

I.Q. is another non-physical quantitative trait that's believed to be very heritable.  But many temperament traits are so intertwined with one another, the "overall" measure of a dog is fairly unique.  I frequently see a gal at my job who works at the University of Colorado's Institute for Behavioral Genetics, and from our conversations I can assure you, they don't know alot about anything.  The scope of their research is limited to "molecular aspects of addiction and substance abuse", or questionairres and surveys, and they're a long road away from producing much anything "useful" at this point.

SWGDOG, on "Drives"
"this type of relativistic comparison cannot be quantitatively tested and validated within or between observers, and does not provide a phenotype that can be used in genetic analyses, or behavioral tests"

Somebody's high nerve dog is another person's medium drive, and I'd presume the same of nerves or most other aspects of temperament.  The key, I believe, is to find what can be consistently "measurable" before the complex heritable patterns for nerves can be identified.  That, and of course, a definition of nerves that we can all agree on.

Here's a few articles by Dr. Temple Grandin, Professor of Animal Science at Colorado State University relating to stress & novelty, and the corellation between physical and temperament traits, and how they may be linked.

www.grandin.com/references/genetics.html

www.grandin.com/references/horse.genetics.html

www.grandin.com/references/handle.stress.html

"Genetic traits are linked in complex ways. Over-selecting animals for physical traits often causes changes in behavior."

"Lean animals with fine bone are often more nervous compared to large-muscled animals with heavy bone."

This is a topic I'm very curious about.

When I first set out to purchase our first titled GSD (our 9th GSD overall), the requirements set to me were: female (smaller), sable (visual appeal / preference, I was told Black and Tans and Blacks were out), not too old (3), no so hard that she's unmanageable and uncontrollable.  I didn't realize at the time that we were looking for a dog with "great nerves"...

What we got was a 4.5 year old bitch, 5XIPO3 that had never bred, SVV2 from the Czech Republic, who never competed at the worlds, though that was her original intention.  Her ear had fallen on a trial with injury, we were told.  As she wasn't able to be bred, we were later told that's why she was sold to us - to our disappointment, since someone in the house had always wanted to whelp a litter.

She's met with a number of National and World Champions, some great Regional people, and the one thing that everyone keeps coming back to is what a fabulous set of nerves she has on her and how "clean" she is.  We keep hearing from various people that she's a very intelligent dog, with everyone commenting how she is continually thinking about things, but will instantaneously do what asked (almost all the time).  Now, if we could get that picture perfect heel...:)

It would have been great to get puppies from her - and we've been asked to breed her specifically because of her nerves.

As a newbie, if I didn't have a dog with great nerves, it would be difficult and confusing to really understand what people meant...

How does everyone define "good nerves"? What do you look for? In a puppy, how are you able to determine this?  At what point in time can you really tell? How long to wait? What are some good "nerve" tests?  How do you foster them or enhance the trait?

DDR - this is purely myopically anecdotal, but I could tell right away with my 2 dogs discussed.  Also with the 3rd pup I had between (sold because of uncontrolled urination problems) who was tough as nails, yet sweet.  The 2 were very different pups at the breeders', never mind generally.

Is lack of nerve the same thing as lack of confidence?  What I admire the most in a dog, is one that when confronted by anything, will stand firm, face it and state with its body language "okay, whatever happens, I am ready".  Those types of dogs are few and far between.  I am not talking about a dog that jumps back quickly when an unexpected thing happens, such as a dropped bucket, gunshot or someone rushing out of a blind spot or dark area.  That is a reflexive action and is only human (dog also).  But what I am talking about is one that, after that initial "surprise" faces whatever caused that surprise and says with its body language "okay, bring it, if your coming".

Even a world class prize fighter or battle seasoned military man will jump, duck or hit the deck, when surprised, but does not run away after the initial reflexive action.  He will then face the trouble and deal with it as best he can.  A good dog will do the same.  Confidence in its self.  I admire that the most in a GSD.

I have never cared for the gun test as it is just getting used to something.  It is not a true test of nerve, confidence or bravery.  The true test is when a strange dog or a strange person is running across a field or yard, yelling (growling) and obviously coming "to get" the dog, and the dog goes towards it or waits for it and deals with it.  An exceptional dog will meet the stranger half way.  A very good dog will stand its ground, step forward at the last possible second and deal with the stranger, an average dog will turn and run but will fight hard if caught and a very poor dog will run and if caught, fight weakly and cry all the while.

Dogs do not have embarrassment or pride, but they do have confidence or nerve.  Many don't though.

Do right

First forgive me for being lazy and not reading many of the previous posts.  I only skimmed yours and would like to answer some of your questions.

Nerve is not the same thing as confidence.  You can have a Golden Retriever that has great nerve and will go hunting around loud guns, walk over, under and through debris to save a dying person, but that same dog may not have the confidence to stand up to a sizeable threat. 

You are confusing the two in the second to last paragraph also

Courage does not = nerve