the Panda Shepherd: an observation in Genetics - Page 6

Oh, and Darylehret,

Thanks for sourcing that great genetics chart here!

I don't now jc, this is just speculation on my part, but here is an example: V Yoschy von der Döllenwiese,
His Father is Bicolor, and His Mother is Sable with no black on the hock. Now He is Sable, with black on the hocks.

It just makes me wonder is the slight blackening on the Hock of a Sable means it carries Bi-color? Maybe it happens also in Sables that Carry black resessive......... Hummmm

My female Stretch is a sable, no black on her hocks bred to my Amp son (Brain).  This is a line breeding on Pike.  No solid blacks yet I had bicolors and sables.  I really thought I would have some solid blacks in there because of the linebreeding on Pike  but not a one.  This has been a great topic :)

Karmen

Karmen

Are the mother and father in the database, so we can see the pedigree?

TIG, don't get your panties in a wad on my account.  My comment wasn't a personal attack on you.  You know how many people get on these boards and reguritate a bunch of verbal diahhrea about subjects they know little about.

I'm always pleased to see original sources of documentation quoted on controversial subjects, regardless of topics.  Bonus points for sources that are easily accesible on the Web for anyone to read, for free. 

It just makes me wonder is the slight blackening on the Hock of a Sable means it carries Bi-color? Maybe it happens also in Sables that Carry black resessive...

When I looked at my sables again this morning I noticed my Czech x DDR male has black running down the backs of his hocks that isn't as easy to notice at night.

On the male, Cezar [pedigree]'s side: His father produced some nice bi-color progeny and some of his grand-progeny are also bi-colors. On Cezar's mother's side there are only three pics of progeny, and they're all sable; as are all the 2nd generation pictures.

On the female, Panja [pedigree] there only pictures displayed were of sables.

I know that my sables are black carriers because they've produced all black pups, and all the photos of their offspring that I was able to track down show the progeny  to have black hocks. If Cezar's father carries bi-color, it could stand to reason that Cezar may also carry it...

Yes-

Bodrix von der Vogel Haus

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/350600.html

Stretch Vom Leerburg

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/350607.html

An issue with the Bicolor / Black, and that all variation in btween exist. Making hard to tell, becaus eeven the darkest blacks can sometimes have some tan hairs in between the toes. As I see it the chart lists that you will never get blacks from the Brain to Streach cross, if you already got BT, or Bicolor from it.

It would tell you also that your female does not carry the Black ressesive, but Bicolor from her dam. I think the chart might not explain how bicolor works precisely. But I will have to check it now.

I don't think it's the fault of the chart, but how you're choosing to define bicolor.  The dog in the pic below had very distinct wheat color hair between his toes, but genetically is black.  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/491691.html

Bicolor dogs generally have lighter color around the "vent" under the tail.  Genetic black dogs can still have varying degrees of discoloration, see images here;

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/forposting/kalibleedthru1.jpg

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/forposting/kalibleedthru2.jpg 

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/forposting/kalibleedthru3.jpg

That is the Catch, I really am not defininting black, because I don't know the precise rules for it. but do know there are some really Black Bicolors out there.

I can't see vents on this database and I have only owned one bi-color in my life ( Had Tan vets ), but there are dogs on this database that really stretch the line betrween Bicolor and Black, I think these are Biclors but take a look at how close they are getting to Black. like:

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/389668.html

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/133618.html

Another thing was that growing up we had Black lab, who had an accidental pregnancy with a mongrel. She was Homozigous for black, ( always gave black lab pups even when bred to a Yellow Lab sire) and these mix pups were all Black, except one that was Black and white. We found homes for them and years later when visiting a friend that had taken one of the pups,

I noticed it was solid black, yet in the sunlight you could see bicolor markings Black on Black Bicolor markings, like the markings of a dobe or Rottie. It remimded me of the way Black Jaquar's Have Black spots on that black coat that cat be viewed when the animal is in direct sunlight.

Darylehret,

The chart lists that if a Sable was bred to a Black, and produced Sable and BT, or Sable and Bicolor pups, then the Sable parent does not carry black.

Karmen's, female Stretch is a sable, and her male is a Black, and on this database progeny from the two produced Sable and either Black and Tan or Bicolor, but I can't tell if the B/T offsring is a bicolor or B/T because it is a head shot. ( If the progeny is Bicolor and B/T, then my whole idea that Sables that Carry bicolor have blackened hocks is wrong or only right sometimes.

If the progeny produced were B/T then the chart has a problem becasue Stretch's Dam is Bicolor, and by the Chart she can only be two things.

A: a Sable that Carries Bicolor

B: a Sable that Carries Black

By the Chart, she can't Carry B/T because her Dam is Bicolor, and by the Chart Bicolors Can only pass on Bicolor or Black genes, and no B/T.

Now if you look at Stretch's Pedigree, her Dam is a Bicolor, and Father Sable. Since the chart says that Bicolor can not carry the gene for B/T pattern, and Stretch carries no Black ( if going by tha chart) then she can only carry Sable and Bicolor genes. Unless, the chart is incomplete. The chart lists that the genes for Sable, Solid Black, B/tan and Bicolor are found on the same loci. ( I thought In error it said they were not before studying it). So is that completely correct? I don't know, and I wonder if Sable is Completely dominant to Bicolor, B/T, and even Black, because so often sables do have a saddle, Bicolor, or near black pattern on them.

The only way to test the chart is to see if the Rules have ever been broken. Has a cross from a Black to Sable ever produced three patterns in the same breeding? example: ( Black/ Bicolor/Sable) or ( Black/Sable/BT) or (Black/Bicolor B/T)