Toplines - Page 3

This dog looks roached to me.

Forgot to add, no, Exi looks to have a very nice topline!

Does my dog have a roach back.

www.i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/wolf11112/304490-R1-12-11A_13.jpg

I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out just how the GSD got from this:

(Alf von Nordfelsen, 1955 Sieger)

to the above type of dog.

When I read Bob-O's answer to the thread about the difference between American and German line dogs, finally, the last piece fell into place. (See here for this thread:  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/164772.html . )

 I knew the Martin brothers had been instrumental in changing the look of the German showline GSD, but did not really understand just how it all happened until I read Bob-O's little history, and visited the Zwinger von der Wienerau site, where I found a brief bio of  Walter Martin, written by his step-son. http://www.zwinger-wienerau.de/4.html

To quote: Walter himself was a very charismatic man, who always went his own way - especially with the breeding of German Shepherds. He consequently tried to follow up his vision for the look of the German Shepherd and never lost his goal through setbacks or failures.
 

So, essentially what we have now is one man's vision of what the GSD should look like. It does NOT conform to the breed standard, which calls for a straight back, not a rounded one, with the withers as the highest point on the back. However, as suecc stated in an earlier thread, if you want to win in the show ring, you HAVE to have a dog that looks like this! Walter's reason for wanting the curved back was that he felt it was stronger, like the arch of a bridge. However, if you read Linda Shaw's comments in her illustrated standard, this reasoning is not correct. The arch actually interferes with the smooth transmission of the drive from the rear legs. http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/04_The_Back/The_Back.html

You can track the gradual change Bob-O talks about by going to this site, here: http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/p2p.html

It also shows how the American dogs have changed, starting with Lance of Fran-Jo.

BTW, I have a question about Alf. Wouldn't his upper arm be considered short and steep by today's standards?

Chris, I love her topline, but I don't see her as having the same topline as the dog you've started this thread with......

So, would someone define "roached" and/vs "banana" backs......

AIR, Exi would have the same "rounded" back in a stance, if her inward rear leg would have been moved more under her body. I have been saying that many times: A stance can change a dog's appearance completely and utterly to the point that you would not recognize him anymore. Dogs with a lot of rear angulation will benefit from a stance where both rear legs are not stretched out too much. A dog with modest angulation looks better if he is pushed down more in the rear and the leg is tucked under. But if you have a steep croup on top of that, it looks completely rounded. Just like my black female in that photo. She has the typical angulation of a workingline and a slightly steep croup. But she was stacked (almost) professionally. I looked through my photobucket album. Unfortunately, I do not have one of her standing naturally. Too bad, would have been a nice comparison. And no, I can not give you an example of a roached dog, as I have no photos. That is why I am asking for people to post them.

Al Garza: No, I don't think that this dog is roached in a stance, but he does seem to pull the middle of his back up in movement. IMO, this is due to a limited front reach and sufficient rear angulation. He "compensates".

Chris

From Linda Shaw's Illustrated Standard of the GSD:

THE ROACH BACK
A true roach is any convex (upward) curvature of the spine. It doesn’t really matter if it starts before the withers, after the withers, in the upper or lower back, or is higher or lower than the withers. If the spine is arched anywhere along its length, it’s roached, although the roach can certainly vary in severity. A dog straining at the leash can appear roached, but may not be. The rear is driving forward and the front is stationary; something has to give. However, if the dog displays a curvature when free standing, posed or not, and when moving freely at the trot, it’s roached.

Al, that example you gave? That's not just a roach, it's a broken topline, meaning the topline takes an abrupt change in direction. See Linda Shaw's site http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/04_The_Back/The_Back.html for a more typical example of a roach.

Sunsilver,

yes, I agree that Alf has a short upper arm. I can not say anything about how steep it is because of the angle the photo was taken. But I can tell you that he has a nice topline. If somebody would stack him the way dogs are stacked now, he too would have a rounded back. Wanna bet?

When I compare dogs from the 20s or 30s or 40s with nowadays dogs and the ones from the 80s, I still see the same characteristics. Improvements have been made but the basic structure is still the same. You have to keep in mind that there have always been extremes in both directions. We need to look at the well rounded dog. In the 20s to the 40s, the dogs did not have the body substance. In the 60s, dogs were longer in body and had different proportions. I do think that judges and breeders decided back then that a dog with a long back is not stable and changed it in favor of a firmer back. The middle back got shorter, because shorter backs can not sag. This brought on the appearance of a more rounded back. Combined with a sloping croup and rear angulation it gave the illusion of the roach or the boomerang (another definition). Take a look at the VA-dogs of the 70s and 80s. The only difference to our modern dogs is the stance. And that is the whole problem: The way we stack our dogs nowadays feeds the misunderstanding of a roach back. Nothing else! While there are certainly a few individual dogs with a roach (or a two angled back or any point of the back being higher than the withers), the majority does not have the problem. The SV had an article to that fact in the magazine a few years ago.

Chris

There is a much more important related issue here related to banana backs that is being missed.  It's what happens to the back and croup during gaiting on a loose-lead or off-lead.  The problem with a moderate to severe roach (banana) back is that the operational result moving is "RUMP-ROLLUP" which functionally steepens the croup too much, restricting proper range of motion in the rear and causes compensatory actions to balance out the front and rear actions, the overall effect which is impaired movement and much less efficiency in the GSD. 

Besides, this rump-rollup (the rolling up of the rear downward) is very unpleasing to the eye.  At the last Siegerhauptzuchschau, over 1/2 of the top GSD males (VA and V) exhibited this problem to a moderate to severe degree when off-lead, or tired out on-lead.  I would never have any interest in this type of GSD with this type of impaired movement or diminished appearance.  Supposedly there are approx. 1200 SV breed clubs in Europe and one can find a huge range of everything in GSDs, ranging from the ugliest dogs with poor temperament, to the ugliest dogs with great temperament, to the most attractive dogs with poor temperament, and to the most attractive dogs with great temperament, and everything in between.  A virtual smorgasboard of different types, quality and pricing.  It's all there if one wants to do the research. What ends up at the Siegerhauptzuchschau placing high are not necessarily the best available SV registered GSDs.

The roach back issue is primarily an issue of impaired movement and reduced eye appeal standing.  As far as Alf, he is probably better than anything today.  He was a lean, robust very correct GSD with superb temperament.  Certainly a GSD like him comes along very rarely.  Who wouldn't absolutely love owning a GSD like ALF?

Occasionally I have seen GSD which at first glance appeared very attractive, but showed serious gait problems when moving, such as drop of the front as the rear goes up.  This can be concealed by a good handler with a tight lead many times.  It's like the old breed warden's slogan:  It should look like a GSD;  it should move like a GSD; and it should behave like a GSD.  IMO the best GSD is one that is balanced at both ends with correct structure like ALF.