Training with force? - Page 10

Tried and true, yes, but as been pointed out previously the people that are at the top of the game have expanded their training beyond Koehler.

I think Koehler gets an unfair amount of criticism today.  He did afterall pioneer an entire time period for dog training, and a lot of what he said still applies today.  We just happen to know that other things apply as well, and top trainers utilize those things.

>  I do not disagree with you! The methods have worked for me so I continue to use them. In the end we achieve the same results, hopefully.?

i think there is a difference in correction and force so let us not confuse that,here is the problem i have with and i explain it like this.i bet you if some one put a gun to your head and make you it shit, every one will do it you may not like it but you will do it.that is the power of force.also i have yet to see any one do it right most of the people i have seen opnce they start giving the dog correction lok at there faces they get so mad and look so upset and naturally when you are in that state of mind you can not give proper praises and almost every one forget to give praises at that point.thus totally leaving the dog in the low drive.here is an old idea,if you bent on trainig dog with corrections,when you give the dog correction and put him in the low drive mode be prepared to stay cool and calm and give praises from the heart.take a look at the faces of people giving corrections next time.

. Once again I have trained using koehler methods exclusively for decades and have noticed little to no difference in my dogs trained than any other method to include their wanting to please. As previously stated, I do not disagree with any method if it gets the task done at hand, I simply prefer this method and will continue to utilize it.

I still think the Kohler method of teaching a dog to heel is by far the best method, and see it still being used in dog training classes, although maybe along with some treats to keep the dog focused on the handler.

However, I also believe treats MUST be phased out, once the dog really  understands what it's to do.

I heard a story about a lady with a service dog that was treat trained. At the end of a long shopping trip, she went out to her car. It was pouring rain, and she dropped her keys on the ground. She'd run out of treats. The dog knew this, and REFUSED to pick up the keys. Since she was't capable of reaching them herself, she had to go back into the mall, and get a security guard to come and help her.

A lot depends on the individual dog. Steve LOVES hard dogs, and, as he said above, he'd get rid of any dog which would shut down if given a hard correction. Most of us prefer softer dogs, so we have to adjust our training methods accordingly.

The gal in my sig loved tracking. She was the first dog I ever trained in tracking. After just two weeks of training, she'd blow right past the bait, she was so keen to follow my scent.  Although our instructor wanted us to track in a harness only, I had to use a choke chain, along with lots of corners to slow her down. The only corrections we were allowed to use was shortening the tracking line to limit the dog's radius of search while it tried to work out a corner.

Personally, I do not look at tracking as something where you use compulsion on your dog. It is something a dog does naturally. I was taught to trust my dog to work the track out, and if he couldn't find it, to guide him back to the track. If the dog was having a bad day, you went back a level, and did simpler tracks. So many things can affect the track: wind direction and speed, humidity, temperature, the presence of animal or human cross-tracks you may know nothing about.

My point is : if your dog is not tracking properly, first, you have to ask yourself WHY? There are a lot of variables to consider other than 'he's just blowing me off'!

Natural ability has to be considered, too. Tasha was a born tracker. Everything in life had to be checked out with her nose. (Never did cure her of crotch-sniffing!) When we took her into a strange place, such as a motel room, she'd spend a good 20 minutes sniffing everything in the room. My current dogs don't act like that. They also don't have the natural drive she did for tracking, and my first GSD had no interest in tracking at all. If I disappeared from her sight, she'd run back and forth looking for me, and make NO effort to use her nose. I never trained her to track because I didn't know how, but I am quite sure she would not have been very good at it! (She was the most un-GSD like GSD I've ever owned. She probably would have helped a burglar by holding his flash-light...)

As for using force in other parts of training, yes, if my dog is trained to sit, and refuses to do it, you bet he/she gets a good, firm correction. First a pop of the leash, then if that doesn't work, a leash pop combined with forcibly pushing the hindquarters down.

There are multiple ways to skin a cat, though. I believe any good trainer should be open to learning new methods and techiques.

LOL....
Was the burglar comment....:)
Getreal felt we should hash this old thread over again so why not.
You can't force a dog to do something well.

Treats are unreliable.

Its always best to use a dogs natural inclinations, thats why people breed the way they do.

Build on those foundations first.

  I only realized that now, TwoMoons!

Darn good thread, though!