Training with force? - Page 9

Don, OUTSTANDING!!!!!

>  One only needs to read of the accomplishments and "thousands" of titles obtained by Koehlers training methods to know his methods are for more than just a reliable pet.

Deacon

Forgive me if I have offended.  I cannot read your feelings over the internet. 

Can you please give me examples of the accomplishments and titles obtained?  I don't think it is very difficult to get a title with the Koehler method.  You are correct.  AKC titles should count for something.  I should have said that if you are looking to be average in anything other than a reliable pet, than you should look beyond Koehler.  Yes you can probably pass Sch with the Koehler method and get a title, but your scores are going to be very low. 

Just because I got a degree(title) online, does not mean that I am equal to someone who got theirs at MIT, does it?    I am not trying to be ofenssive, but showing that there are varying levels to diffent and same titles.  A dog that scores consitantly in the high 90's is not the same as a dog that squeaks by with a 70-70-80, is it? 

You see, to me even a low level club dog is a reliable pet.  It is definitely not a competition dog.  Just because someone want to give the dog some exercise and mental relief, that does not mean that it is beyond the status of a reliable pet.  Does it make a difference if they do flyball as opposed to Sch?

>  I am not referring to schutzhund titles and such. I am referring to the AKC obedience, utility dog,etc: titles obtained through the decades with his methods.  He didn't hesitate to explain them in his books either. I am not "downing" any other training method and hopefully never will. However I use his method exclusively and see no difference in the happiness and eagerness to please the handler than any other training methods I have observed. With the drive in many of todays working breeds his method in my opinion works just fine. I train and work PSDs, many are dominant, they seem to adjust to his method just great. They work the same as any other method I have seen utilized with no loss of drive, etc:

I would like to know the name of even ONE top level trainer/handler who has trained their dog using Koehler-only methods, to top level competition (meaning advanced titles in Schh, AKC obedience, agility, rally, SAR or police certification) - and I mean titles such as UD, UDX, OTCH, or National level in any of these venues.  ONE name of ONE top trainer who has had success at the top levels of any competition using Koehler-only methods and no other. 

molly

eichenluft you won't find them. Too many people don't want to admit or can't admit to useing strictly koehler training because of the negative stigma with the method. There was even a training facility by my house  a few years back that used koehler and the news showed up as people were claiming dog abuse. People have become too sensitive to dog corrections and now Koehler is almost phased out. but if you went back 10 or 20 years i dont' think you would have a problem finding an answer to your question. And the sensitivity is rediculous. I have heard of people passing by situations where people where in fights or children being spanked but try and correct your dog at a park and they call the police on you screaming animal cruelty. Come on people i love my dog and wouldn't do anything to damage her but a correction is a correction not abuse. And that correction and Koehler method can make a safe environment for all, especially with powerful breeds.

right, the Koehler method is 20 years old and now it is "old news" and not used anymore, by any top trainers who are titling their dogs in ANY DOG SPORT to high level titles, anywhere with any success.  20 years ago, yes (maybe) - but now the methods that work for the top trainers are much different.

molly

Molly i don't believe Koehler teaches schutzhund or ring sport or anything like that so i will have to agree with you about sport dog but obedience i know the four guys i train with have all reached utillity in obedience and one was top dog at  a training center he did drop in traning at. As for my dog she would have had her Novice at a little over a year if it wasn't for going into heat. And i can't travel so i have to wait for the shows in illinois to come around once a year. SHe is great and knows novice and open and most of utility at the age of 2. This was all done with Koehler and i love when i do drop in training and everyone wants to know where i train. Funny thing is i train Koehler in my buddies backyard, and they can't believe it. Koehler is and old method but it's tried and true it works and there is proof in obedience. For sport dog i am not sure i dont 'have any knowledge of Koehler in that aspect so i am somewhat ignorant to that. I do know he has a tracking method but for protection work or anything else i only know of personal protection or guard dog for Koehler.

even in dog sport there is obedience training involved, Koehler could be the method of choice - but it isn't - it is old school, no longer used by any top trainer.  I use bits and pieces of "Koehler-like" methods, for my pet-training clients - sit, down, walk on leash nicely, don't pull your owner on their face kind of training for hyper pet labs and giant breeds whose owners insist on walking them on flat collars.  But for any sort of competitive obedience, nope isn't what I would call "current training method" if you want the high scores.

molly

>  Tried and True Molly, I will stick to the Koehler Method no nonsense straight to the point approach.