health gaurantee - Page 1

I need some advice. I am a new breeder and am proud to say we have our first litter. The second puppy sold, has been diagnosed with a grade 2/6-3/6 heart mumur, at age 9 weeks. All puppies were checked by my vet before being sold so this was quite shocking to hear. The buyers wife, contacted me within 30 minutes of her husbands return from the Vet. and wants her money back. I offered: 1) another puppy of same sex, quality, ect. She said she didn't like the colors of the other puppies, they aren't dark enough. 2) Wait for a pauppy from another litter (which may be up to 6-8 months; so I didn't really expect her to accept that and she didn't.) 3) I want you to have a puppy you are happy with, so find another puppy that meets all your requirements, color, health, ect. and I would issue them or the breeder a check for the purchase price of $400.00. 4) wait and see if it improves or goes away by the time the puppy reaches at least 20 weeks of age (her Vet. reccomended 7-8 months)and if it is still there, do what she thinks is best. I also requested a written statement from her Vet. so I could show it to mine and she accused me of not trusting her. I also offered the option of bringing the puppy out for my vet to re-check and invited them to attend the visit, to this she replied they didn't have that kind of time. After sending me a letter of acusing me of lying, being untrust worthy and a bad breeder, they said the would just keep the puppy and deal with the consequences. My contract covers the same as everyone else, Parvo. distemper, corona ect. for 4 days after purchase. I also gaurentee the hips and elbows. In both of these I offer the same options, puppy replacement. In the condition of a 2/6-3/6 heart mumur in a 9 week old puppy, I see no need for alarm and such drastic measures as to return for a full cash refund. Within the week that they have had the puppy they have changed her food, even though I provided them with 2 days worth, and she has been exposed to thier other dogs, which makes me nervous in putting her back with my remaining puppies or around the Dame and Sire. Should I drop it and let them keep the puppy? Have I been unresonable? What would your policy be? Do you specifically state heart mumur and what do you offer if one is found in a 9 week old puppy? Do you ever give cash refunds for any reason?

Dear Lyn, It is very suspicious that the new owner doesn't want to provide you with a written statement from her Vet, nor does she want to bring the puppy out for your vet to re-check and to attend the visit. When one of the puppies I have bought was diagnosed with hart murmur, I immediately asked my wet for a statement, and have sent it to my breeder. (Thankfully, the murmur went away in a couple of weeks. It was due to stress and other health problems that the puppy had, but that's another story). So, in my opinion, you should do such: 1. Take the puppy back. I am sure it is going to be all right, and you will find a much better home for him/her. 2. If it is impossible for you to take the puppy back - offer partial refund, but ONLY after the puppy is being checked by the vet that you both agree upon, in presence of both parties. If everything is exactly how you describe it, it looks like the new owner just wants to take advantage of you.

If you have a health guarantee, which every breeder should have - this basically says that the puppy you sold is healthy. The owner is allowed to check that for himself, by taking the puppy to his own vet within a reasonable amount of time after purchase - usually within a few business days, maybe 2 weeks at the most. And, if anything is found in that vet visit that concludes that puppy is NOT healthy (for any reason), then the puppy should be returned for full refund. A puppy with a heart murmur is not a healthy puppy! Yes, he might grow out of it, probably will - but you sold them a healthy puppy with health guarantee (I hope), and he is not healthy. They took him to their vet in a reasonable time, their vet found heart murmur - now your responsibility is to refund their total purchase price and take back the puppy, if they refuse the option of replacement pup. I do recommend getting their vet's written signed statement with his health-check findings.

Breeding is a responsibility. You created that life and are responsible for it. You need to be prepared to take back a puppy if the owner has a problem, particularly a 9 week old!!! I would definitely give them a full cash refund, and take the puppy back, and to my own vet. The vet check that a buyer takes a puppy for is to ascertain that the puppy is healthy as that is what you represent him to be when you sell him. If the vet check says he is not healthy, you have a moral and probably a legal obligation to take him back. And if the buyer is trying to scam you, why would you want to let her have that puppy or another one? At $400 I suspect you are selling in the local paper with pet owners as your market, and loathe to take back a puppy as you state you have only sold two. Breeding is NOT easy, it is not just a way to raise some easy cash. It comes with responsibilities not only to the buyers, but to the dogs. There are too many people breeding who don't care about anything but money. You can make more money taking a second job for the holidays that you will net when you properly raise a litter of puppies. Lots of time cleaning up poopy papers for what will end up less than minimum wage!!!

Sorry, but if I got that phone call, has nothing to do with trusting the buyer or not. Contract is a contract. If they are going to want to claim ANYTHING, then what's stated in the contract goes. Proof from the vet (which they should've gotten when they visited with them) and secondary followup isn't too much. Offer to pick up the dog and do it yourself if nothing else.

Hi Lyn, Heart murmurs in puppies can be very difficult to diagnose 100%. I sold a puppy locally who was examined by my vet the day before. Everything sounded and looked normal. The buyer took it to their vet the next day and was told it had a 3/6 murmur. The buyer and I together took the puppy to a THIRD vet 5 days after the first exam, and nothing was heard. The puppy was listened to several times until a year of age when brought in for vaccines and to be spayed. The "murmur" was never heard again. This is very common. Vet's are LOOKING for problems when they are examining a new puppy. They also don't want to miss anything. Remember, the majority of puppies that vets see are BYB genetic nightmares. More than likely the puppy does not in fact have a murmur, and more than likely if it does it will out grow it. HOWEVER, sometimes the least stressful thing to do is to take the puppy back. This is usually the best thing to do for the puppy, and for your own piece of mind. I know it can be stressful having a puppy leave, go "who knows where", and then be brought back to your property carrying "who knows what". I would demand the puppy is bathed in Virkon (or other like product that your vet might recommend) prior to return. If he is carrying any virus on him, that should take care of it. I would still try to keep him isolated from other puppies you may have for 5 days after his return, however.

Lyn, my guarantee clearly states that the pups will be free of any health problems and a heart murmur is a health problem so if it were me, I would take the pup back and refund her money. I also had a pup with a low grade heart murmur and sold her to a pet home with full disclosure of her condition after my vet assured me that it would not impact her quality of life or longevity. I simply modified the health guarantee to exclude the condition. I think that if you do some research, you'll discover that it is not that unusual for pups to have mild heart murmurs when they are very young...most resolve themselves as the pup grows. By the time she was 6 months old, there was no trace of my pup ever having had one. Of course, she ended up being the nicest pup in the bunch.

eicneluft states it as it is .. but i would like to add ?? what in the world is a 3/6 murmor ??.. that is to say there are differnet types of murmurs ..tell me figuratively what the SPECIFIC MURMUR IS DIAGNOSTICALLY . although ultrasounds are diagnostice some very very experienced vets cabn make an intelligent impression as to the type of murmur due to the specific and characteristic sound made by some !! some are indicative of normal health but others not !! there is a functional murmur in nature and an organic type in nature .. functional means that the murmurs is caused by the beating of the heart and not pathological .. whereas organic is pathological meaning there is a serious defect in structure ..for exapmle mitral valve prolapse , tricuspid valve deficiencies or aortic stenosis .. those are seriuos problems .. many functional murmurs go away and in a short period of time .. this is so with those typs of murmurs in childhood and they just dissapear with later growth .so bottom line is , and i know these are hard to intially be heard or picked up by vets ,therefore some dicrepancies ... but what is the Definitve Diagnosis ?? that is the operative question . then again if you do keep to your contract the owners should have no problem with proper diagnosis and documentation ..that is only fair .. plus it is important to you as a breeder that YOU know what might/might not be in your lineages ,to compare to other offspring from uncles ,aunts cousins etc . hope this works out amicably for all -- and the pup too

I just wanted to say in addition, that the breeder should not question the vet who diagnosed the heart murmur. That is to say - the owner followed the correct procedure and took the pup to a vet for a check-up within a reasonable time of purchase. The pup was found not healthy. The reason he is not healthy doesnt' matter! If the pup had a runny nose, diarrhea, poor coat or serious overbite - the vet found the pup not healthy! That is what a health guarantee is for - to protect the buyer. No matter what the problem, if the owner discovers his pup is not healthy in a vet checkup, then the breeder must take the pup back for full refund, or replace the pup - whatever the OWNER decides he wants to do! Yes the heart murmur will probably resolve itself, the runny nose would not be a life-long problem, the overbite might never affect the pups' quality of life. But, bottom line - the pup was sold as a healthy puppy and he has been found RIGHT NOW to be unhealthy. Pup must be accepted back for full refund. There should be no question in this matter, from the breeder.

I think that everyone posting has essentially agreed that the pup should be taken back. I too agree with that, although I also agree that IF the pup indeed has a murmur, it may well go away and, at the very least, one would want to follow up to find out what it causing it if it really is there. As many have said, it is not uncommon. What I do sense is a new breeder who at least is trying to ascertain what is the right thing to do. For some of us, ethics and integrity play the most important part in our lives. Others have to think about it a bit. But at the very least, I think we can accept that this breeder is trying to figure out what is the right thing to do. As others have suggested, give the money back in full, take the pup back and keep it isolated for a few days to make sure it is not harboring a virus or infection it has picked up somewhere, and find out what is the real issue with the pup and then go from there in deciding what to do with the pup. At least you are trying to figure out what is the right thing to do. The right thing to do is give a full refund. I know some who do not ever do the right thing, even in the face of early and crippling dysplasia.