Agression with E-Collar - Page 2

An E-collar is a tool, just like a prong or pinch collar, or a choke collar.  Used properly by a skilled handler it is a fantastic device.  The timing is perfect, there is no emotion from the handler and no cranking on the dogs neck.  However, in the hands of an unskilled user it can be damaging.  I have seen dogs get hammered by heavy handed handlers with a leash and prong collar.  I think prong collars are great when used appropriately.  A poor, mistimed and overly harsh correction is wrong it doesn't matter what device the handler used to inflict the punishment.  

I know of dogs screwed up in bite work by corrections on the prong collar, either by the handler, decoy or 3 rd party.  That is why I didn't recommend back tying the dog and giving 3 rd party corrections.  Although, I agree with a skilled helper and a skilled 3 rd party this would be the best approach.  I am reluctant to give advice like that because I don't know the skill level of the parties involved.  The person handling the long line has to be very good as well.  If the timing and the strength of the correction is wrong you are back to square one and the dog's agggression will be elevated just like with the e collar. 

The best thing would be to teach the "out" off the training field with a tug or toys.  I teach my dogs the out from 8 weeks while playing.  I don't like the decoy (or anyone else) giving my dogs corrections.  I want my dogs to know they can win and the decoy is not someone to really respect.  I don't ever want my dogs afraid of a correction from the decoy or respecting a decoy because he may give a correction.  The dog outs on my command, not before.  I also have stopped doing the automatic out.  My dog will hold the sleeve (with a full hard bite) after the decoy locks up until I say out.  I rarley use 3 rd party corrections on my current dog because he will go after the 3rd party who is giving the correction as fast as the decoy.  He has no handler aggression, so I give the corrections and there is no conflict.  The dog outs very well and is very clear headed and calm in the bitework, but very serious as well.  He's not your average GSD, he's high drive and fairly hard.

However, when I decoy for schutzhund people, who are only trying to title their dog for sport I will often correct the dog.   For a sport dog I don't see a big issue with the decoy giving the correction.  Many times I am working with new handlers and they are not capable of correcting the dog at the right time.  For a purely sport dog a little respect for the decoy is fine.  I will aslo gain a dogs trust as Vickie mentioned to give the dog more self confidence during the bitework.  Every dog is different and so are the skills of the handlers.  You work with what you have, but the training has to be tailored to the dog and handler team.

FWIW, JMO

Jim

Jim,

Very good and sound advise.  I assumed this person knew a little bit of something since they thought they were experienced enough to use a e-collar!

Thank you Jim!

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

Decoy correcting your dog is the most silly and stuid thing i have seen and heard of.it makes no sense no matter what you are trainig your dog for.Decoy is a bad guy not good guy or half and half no wonder so many shutzhund dogs are screwed up.if a new handler does not know how to give correction teach him. i can not stand decoy correcting other peoples dogs. it is stupid pure and simple.has no place in training shutzhund or otherwise.have a nice one.

Well I guess 90% of national and world level  french and mondio ringsport trainers, and I would guess at least half the Sch trainers in the world are all stupid

Held, please tell us how you really feel about decoy corrections in SchH.  

Held, it really depends on the temperment of the dog.  I stated for sport work I will at times correct the dog, depending on the ability of the handler and the temperment of the dog.  I prefer civil or more serious dogs myself.  However, A highly confident, social, well adjusted, high dive, high prey dog, can score very highly in a schutzhund trial.  This type of dog may have little defense drive, bites full every time because it is clear headed and not in conflict.  These dogs can score in the high 90's in SchH.  I have a SchH3 female like this.  No one is a threat to her, very confident, loves people, super high prey drive also scores in the upper 90's in protection.  It is difficult to push this dog into defense, she will take tremondous pressure and still focus on that sleeve.  It doesn't matter who corrects this dog, she want s the sleeve.

Now, my male and police K9, only I correct.  He is more serious, and want s the man not the sleeve.  His grips are also full and very hard (genetic), but he he will bite the decoy in the chest as fast as the sleeve.  So for him no decoy correction, no 3 rd party correction.  I don't know how long you have been a decoy, but sometimes for sport dogs it is ok for the decoy to correct the dog.  As GARD said many national level dogs have been corrected by the decoy.  It really depends what your goals are.  As I said earlier, I want my dogs to view the helper as a bad guy, however, my female doesn't.  SchH 3 score 277, not too bad.  I respect your point and for my dogs I agree with you.  However, not every newcomer to SchH has gained the experience and timing necessary to give the proper corrections, some never will.  By the time you train the first time handler, the dog is already too far gone and has learned many bad habits. 

Trust me I have decoyed for many dogs from puppies to old age, sometimes the handler is not capable and the decoy must help.  That is why we decoy, to "help" the handler.

Jim

I have had my dogs corrected by the decoy for the out and they have all been fine with it.  Even a very well known trainer has used this method on my Karn Fegelhof son with no real lasting conflict!  Besides, the correction INTO the decoy makes them NOT want to try to hold onto the sleeve and the correction away from the decoy or backwards can make the dog want to hold onto the sleeve and fight harder for it.

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

Vickie, well put, and very correct.

Jim

This is exactly why I will not compete in any arena.Not to mention the horse world.If anyone has to use an e-collar for an OFF//RELEASE..How ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in any situation.Good God I have nothing against an e-collar if used within the proper hands.If the individual has been bred which is the usual case just for that bite.By usage of the collar for an OFF will only put the dog into another drive...But probably a defensive one that will only increase the bite further.I should make my way to the Mobile or Pensacola SchH clubs..This type of shit shouldnt be happening.I had no idea.....But I cannot influence/educate unless I join.I have my ways of training but for the most part it is within the dog...genetics etc and working with the dog as an an individual..NOT PLASTIC!!!JMO

Slamdunc,

Thank you!

I also want to state that the dog learns the out in this manner, with correction from the decoy or a 3rd party, also gets a reward bite when he is correct in obeying the out command!  He learns EXTREMELY FAST with this and there is not any conflict within the dogs head.  He has to out when I say and he sits quiet or can go into a bark and hold but can not make a grip till the decoy moves, I prefer silent guarding though!  My Karn Fegelhof son has such an excellent out (THANK YOU DEAN!) that the decoy can walk towards(forward into the dog) the dog and the dog will actually back up to stay in the correct positon infront of the decoy till he gets correct presentation of the sleeve then he knows he can bite!  He is very clear about the out of the sleeve but if I ask him to out MY ball, that is a different story all together!  The Karn Fegelhof son is Valko Leneger-Meer and he is the dog hanging from the decoy in the tree in my avatar.  We were working grips that day at a Roland Siebel seminar.

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

Rainhaus, please explain to us how you teach the out?  I am always looking for new ways and others opinions on training.  These are the topics that make the PDB worthwhile.  I would enjoy hearing your style of training.  Also, the correction for the out does not elevate every dogs agression level; only certain dogs.  It is not the norm for a dog to react this way to a correction, but some will.  Which is why the training must be tailored to the individual dog and handler.  What works well for one dog may not work for the next dog, each dog is different.  As a decoy you need to read each individual dog and respond to it's unique drives accordingly.  Remember, we are all in agreement that in THIS case they should stop with the E collar. 

Jim