Agression with E-Collar - Page 3

Jim, As you said every dog is different.In order for me to make a judgement call.I would have to see the individual.There is no set style on training. I have a lot to learn myself.Out/off should be taught early on in puppyhood...off any leash.The owner of the new puppy should have knowledge enough to recognise the natural within the pup.Was the male or female an alpha in the litter?What level of prey exists within the pup?In a high level prey pup..The introduction shouldnt be what I think most people do..work specifically on just increasing the prey drive then they just get ate up in it...then the other drives that exist within the pup are over ruled in the mindset of the individual for life.Tools and aids then HAVE to be used...for an Off...and for some intitially they lacked any other drive initially to even bring out or work with.Just an example.If I had sold Jazena as a pup(alpha)..she probably would have had to have an e-collar as a pup.She bit the shit out of me when she 8 weeks.She was a hard case! haha I gave her a decoy a two inch rope and she would deep bite with no release and i would swing her around my head.Damn I was worried about her breaking her teeth.I slowed down on that even though she wanted it..then she would pick up that big ass rope and parade as if to say this is all mine(my kill)..as soon as she dropped it I would slide it abit and she was onagain.I realized that she needed a different focus(decoy) another job.I had never had a leash or a collar on her.I did let her drag a twenty foot training leash once.She had no problem.Next step was to see if she wanted to be by my side(never a treat)..no words spoken.If she went too far looking at all the stuff(decoys) and her focus wasnt on me.I immediately turned the other way and ran in a split second.The distance became by my side with her eyes looking at mine.No ball/treat/decoy necessary.Next step..I let her out with the horses her focus was on me.She circled them and was going in.I said the word OFF followed by a verbal of "annnt".As soon as she widened her circle and looked at me.I said Good.The same was done with my goat.These were not repeating sessions.It is best to do spur of the moment in training so the individual is not aware of ...just expecting the usual and are just conditioned...for one drive.It is good to give a layoff for those that are.Not to be just put in a kennel and fed and watered..so they can just circle and eat their tails off.The prey of the tail.eerrr. Rainhaus..Candace

Rainhaus:  I'm still not understanding how you teach the out.  I understand  drive building and focus games, but need a little more clarification on how you transfer this and the horse/goat thing into the out.

I haven't posted here for while but had to comment: some of the previous posts made were good for some ideas  ..... BUT not one.... not one post adressed your problem fully . I cannot give a seminar her but let's start at the  begining . First you do not have a proper relationship with your dog ... why .. because you try to control your dog rather than have taught , even before your protection training started , how to communicate to your dog , nutrute your dog , and from that ... teach it self control . If you did y... ou would not have devolped an out problem to begin with . Teaching and training is a manifestation of your dog , every single day and in EVERYTHING you do . Like martail arts.. working with your dog should be a way of life. There are a multidude of reasons a dog does not 'out' '. But all of these stems back to how you relate to your dog .. how you raised it  , how and what it has learned through you or without you . [ and  also the genetic makeup ]. Secondly ... in order to solve this you must fully understand your dog needs , desires , feelings and thoughts. If you do not [ and this again goes to your RELATIONSHIP ] then how in the world can you have a chance to fix it ? If a child droped a ball .. and your dog picked it up in life .. does you dog gladly and with enthusiasm give it up to you on even a whisper ? if you played trug of war with it on a toy rope .. does it stay calm or odes it ger frantic .. stressed ? Does it display confidence or does it get more insecure that it is going to loose it ? There are no techiniques . You have to start by knowing who and what  your dog is . As one person already stated hard to talk specifics without seeing your dog and you . Not just the with the out ..  you have to instill calmness in your dog .. confidence .. trust .. . etc.  Some are correct you must teach the behvior you want .. I would not use the words you use now .. that has your problem behavior assciated with it and bad experineces . I would first communicate the behavior . I would do this everywhere , every place and anytime. for example : at dinner time i would give him his favcorite toy .. I would hold his food in front of him [ that is his need , yes .. to fulifill a desrie to east or eliminate hunger  yes? ] . Let him decide /offer the behavior  of giving his toy up without traking it . let it drop. . He will let go of his item to eat right? That is when you give him the food .. After a few times of doing that .. then attatch the '' new out word' . Instantaneously tell him "good .. your new word"  as he drops the toy /item and give him his food. Do this anywhere /place / time when he is hungry . I also would do this when the dog is maybe quite thirsty .. I would then generalize to his other toys  , balls feisbees, .. bite rags . to bite tugs. After he gets the concept I would use two tugs. at first I would give him a tug and keep quite pull out of my pocket a second tug assuming he loves to bite and play . I would wait five minutes if i have to .. let him decide to let go let go of the first tug .. no fighting .. he has to be calm , clear headed. immediately  when he let's go then he gets the second. You have to understand what will  make your dog want to let go and give you the tug. that is your job. when he get's the idea then attatch your new out word. again .. do this anywhere anytime any place and all of your life contexts. next progress to two bite sleeves.  anywhere any place any time . now have someone else do this ... maybe start with a toy , a rag , a tug .. a sleeve . Always keep in mind  . what the dog is thinking and feeling and needing. you might have to improvise depending on how you dog behaves . .You have to THINK WHAT WILL BRING ABOUT THE OUT IN THE DOG"S MIND .  But your realtionship is the key . when the dog is secure , confident , wanting to give you what it has beacuse y

using the e-collar for a quick fix is lazy and stupid

sell the collar and invest some time and patience that is all that is needed. you are obviously not experienced enough to own one.

the e-collar should be a last resort in any situation. 

 good post alphapup

 Alphapup

Rainhaus, I'm also a little confused.  When I use the term "decoy" I mean a individual with a bite sleeve or puppy tug or rag who's job is to stimulate the dog to bite.  By prey work in the beginning and defense later on.  The "decoy" or "helper" is the one that stimulates/agitates the dog in the protection work.  You seem to correlate the decoy with focus, that is where I'm confused.  I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.  In schutzhund "out" means to release the bite sleeve and guard the "decoy" or helper.  It must be something different than what you do with the goats and the dogs.   The "decoy" is not a toy or a treat, but a person who works the dog in protection.  The owner or handler is typically not the decoy.  We must be talking about two completely different things.

Jim

The original poster has not responded since posing the question,   I would like to get more details  regarding what he/she has done regarding the out previous to the e-collar?  Are you training with it or trying to correct a problem with it?   I pretty much agree with most who have posted here,  go back to the pole or the table (great for teaching out).  I don't have a problem with a decoy correcting the dog providing it's the right decoy! 

I agree Sue.  I also think it's interesting the original poster has not posted again.  But at least a good thread on training.

Jim

The last part of my post was cut off...... so to add : does a dog sit ? does a dog lay down ? does a dog naturally use it's nose?   yet we teach it sitz / platz / such ......As i see it .. it does this naturally within a context. Yet we say : we have to teach it .... does a dog also take things with it's mouth and also drop things from it's mouth ? Electronic collars for an out $%%$# !?? My point : you must understand the dog's  view of things in a specific context.  Why does it does it do  , what it does ... and if that is not the behavior you want ..... you will get no where unless you change the dog's viewpoint in that context. I do not train with collars or leashes  .. but I get into my dog's mind ... and I control my dog to control itself .. by using my mind ..there is the answser as to what I have to do .. EG . if you back tie a dog ...that is insecure ... you will make it more insecure ... if you fight a dog on a fith/ bite .. you will get more of a bite... if you show the dog that his better interest is to let go with a specific cue [ word , i use a whistle .goes sound goes the distance over almost any other sound] it is to his interest ...then the dog will teach itself to let go. it could be something as simple as the dog getting another bite that makes him want to out ... for some dogs  , they need to know that they are safe and secure and that they can substitute one behavior for the other. Some dogs don't out because they do not know what to expect after they out [ will the decoy overcome me ? ] ..some dogs won't out b ecause they are possessive and don't want to lose what they have[ it's not about the hekper here]  Again .. you must know your dog in life ... communicate with it  . We are not training our dogs.. they know things to do ... we are helping them , to think ...feel ... understand  , problem solve and have a viewpoint that results in a beahavior [ most likely one they already know] that will bring them success and what it needs in life ... this is Sctuzhund .