Agression with E-Collar - Page 4

Hello Don --- this is a differential ..... a dog that likes to fight .... we have to talk with similarities. first .. the dog .. what about the dog.... what is the temperamnet of the dog and it's make-up. here lies a multitude of factors... how was the dog socialized .. if it even is .. , what is the gentic make-up of ther dog  ie aggression level innately , it's hardness , now outside factors ie has the dog matured and through it's experience devloped a hieghtened suspicion level which cues him more on the man than the sleeve? ... was the dog trained with techniques that ellicit pain . ie hard corrections . did this dog learn that it could solve problems through aggression ? We need to get into the dog's mind . Now .. what is defined by fight.....  this means different things .. a death fight ? in the animal world each animal will do what it feels it needs to do to survive. the formeost is .. you will always win a fight .. by not fighting.... so if a dog engages in a death fight .. then WHY .. why does it take that risk ? or / also ....  is the dog ' fighting to diminish seriuos injury to itself ? This is the key .. The dog itself .         I have seen dogs trained .. they are not so much trying to as others see it , fight ,  but more so to kill ! Two young brothers could be intensely wrestling but is that a fight ? or is it just internse play with a little bit of seriuosness?  the relationship with the handler .. that is a developed.over time .. trust repect communication .. all over time. it is earned by each of us with animals. what you give the doog you get back in return .  i have a dog like that ... at 10 months he did a police demo apprehnding , guarding , escorting a person. BUT here even as a pup even though he was independent .. he learned we BOTH did things with with a mutual synergistic benefit. I fostered .... even in bite work ... that it is a WE. We fulfilled each others need.... He learned even on body suit he could take my direction [ not command ] my direction and that lead to BOTH our benefit. no different than crossing a street with your dog .. he learns you say sit at the corner to keep him safe too. fighting   ... just a different a different behavior ... But same concept. Now a dog that learns that he has to fight for HIS  life .... that is what you get .. a dog concearned about and with his own self preservation. Same with a dog with a temperament flaw too . you can have a sharp dog ... and teach it protection .. but with your relationship set correctly you can give that dog more confidence through experience  etc etc. so that it doesn't have to feel threastend for it's life. so no mattter what ... everything is set upon you relationship with your dog.

So explain how the handlers relationship of a dog that is dominant, and was from birth,  relates to the dog  that doesn't like being eye-funked by the helper.     

Don ... sorry ... I don't understand the term eye-funked .. do you mean stared down at? and domianant .. do you mean as in rank statues or do you mean a dog that is assertive ? If you mean rank then what is that relative to ? the handler? Dominance.. like alpha ..  is not a static postion .. when we discuss dominmance  pleasae define .. for example ..i have two dominant  meaning assertive and  independent GSDs .. i recognized this at 8 weeks .. BUT doesn't matter as long I ubnderstand the needs , wants and derires of the dog and it comes to understand it can trust me .. follow my lead / direction , it can gain it's resources in life via me. Dog's are interested in what it needs .. it's resources in life. I never dominate my dog ... nor it over me ..I do nnot vwerbally or physically dominate it .. this destoys trust .  i build dominion over my dogs.   that is different. I do not assert WILL over my dogs. Like children .. you love your children .. would you ever tell them to do something that would put them in harms way . do they trust you ? of course no tyo one and yes to the other. so when you ask / require them to do something .. don't they know you have their best interest at heart. you seem like a good man .... they are safe with you and you provide for them ?  you do not hjave to physically oe verbally threaten them .. because .. you build ALL through your relatiuonship. A hug says it all to your family yes? same with the dogs.... Same with a dog. . Not even a spoken word .. and they know our heart. even a dominering dog who is assertive can learn trust , safety , self -control and respect.. without even a spoken word to learn to take your direction . And a dog not having a loving relationshiop may comply .. that is not obedience ..it is compliance... and they can harbour resentment too. A domainat / assertive dog will take gladly our direction .. if it is in't best interest .. and we always put forth thier best interest like we would our children

Don ... sorry ... I don't understand the term eye-funked .. do you mean stared down at? and domianant .. do you mean as in rank statues or do you mean a dog that is assertive ? If you mean rank then what is that relative to ? the handler? Dominance.. like alpha ..  is not a static postion .. when we discuss dominmance  pleasae define .. for example ..i have two dominant  meaning assertive and  independent GSDs .. i recognized this at 8 weeks .. BUT doesn't matter as long I ubnderstand the needs , wants and derires of the dog and it comes to understand it can trust me .. follow my lead / direction , it can gain it's resources in life via me. Dog's are interested in what it needs .. it's resources in life. I never dominate my dog ... nor it over me ..I do nnot vwerbally or physically dominate it .. this destoys trust .  i build dominion over my dogs.   that is different. I do not assert WILL over my dogs. Like children .. you love your children .. would you ever tell them to do something that would put them in harms way . do they trust you ? of course no tyo one and yes to the other. so when you ask / require them to do something .. don't they know you have their best interest at heart. you seem like a good man .... they are safe with you and you provide for them ?  you do not hjave to physically oe verbally threaten them .. because .. you build ALL through your relatiuonship. A hug says it all to your family yes? same with the dogs.... Same with a dog. . Not even a spoken word .. and they know our heart. even a dominering dog who is assertive can learn trust , safety , self -control and respect.. without even a spoken word to learn to take your direction . And a dog not having a loving relationshiop may comply .. that is not obedience ..it is compliance... and they can harbour resentment too. A domainat / assertive dog will take gladly our direction .. if it is in't best interest .. and we always put forth thier best interest like we would our children

Don - i awaited a reply .. but anyway .. and for those that are reading .. Don .. my dogs could care less if they are ? stared down ... because of my relationship ! !  from 10 weeks old ... I teach my pups if i want them to do bite work : EVERYTHING IS IRRELEVANT BUT THE BITE . that's all that matters .. the bite . secondly whether bitework or anything else .. I teach them ... calmness , concentration , accompanied with self assurance /confidence in itself. I never allow my dogs to become frantic or hectic. I never reinforce any behavior associated with that. Regarding  environment - at 8 or 10 weeks the rag work [ i did not say agitation .. i mean work ] is done in a multitude of scenarios. through tires , on stairs , in water , near traffic sounds , on different surfaces. through tunnels . The lesson .. nothing matters but the bite .  I use two passes of a rag . Bam into me for the bite , fast and hard. my dogs have no concearn about body space.I even have the pups crawl all over me , even on my face to get the bite of the tug. I use all kinds of articles , all kinds of faces , later i use all kinds of hand gestures.... they have no meaning for the pup .. except .. just hit hard fast and bite hard the target. I use milk cartons filled with rocks .. so what .. the dog trounces on all of them to get the bite. My relationship is to have the pup learn it can overcome anything . it is safe  and can be confident. dominance i dsicussed . we are a team . I will do things like have the helper blink at my dog , act weird .. anything . Only the bite matters . Same with tracking .. the frist day footsteps ..and on the most contaiminated track possible .. the lesson ..nothing matters but to follow the footsteps . same with the attentiveness. I use every disrtaction possible , right from the begining , dogs , people , traffic... the lesson .. dog attend to me / us we are what matters .. we will reach your needs. so who cares in the dogs head what the helper does [ within the context of the maturity of the dog . [.ie you don't defense a 20 week pup] . now a dog that won't out .... huh .. give him a bite ... let him stay there 12 minutes if he has to ... sooner or later he will get tired and off the bite he comes ....if you do not have patience .. then don't train /t each dogs. Bam ... you got it... that is the time to calm down the dog , when he comes off the bite / don't allow for another quick re-bite !.. then ... then give him another bite ... another twelve minutes if you have to ...he'll tire and off the bite he comes. That is when you reinfirce the ' coming off the bite ' and also the 'in ' for teaching the dog  that you can give to  him / adress  what he needs / all of his  feelings ,  his wants and desires. If you think you are going to wrestle with a dog to come off the bite .. forget it .. e-collars .. prong collars .. an intelligent dog will at some point figure it all out... he will figure out when there is no physical control .. you are done / goodbye training ... but if you can tap into having the dog want to out .. then you are 'in'. the scenario I just described takes incredible time / sessions and successive approximations to finalize. good luck

Alpha

That's exactly my point.  I'm not talking about dominance in the relationship between handler and dog.  I'm talking about the relationship between dog and helper.  You keep talking about how your relationship with your dog is the key to everything.  Please explain in detail how your relationship with your dog effects the relationship with dog and helper, when the dog's motivation is the fight.

I do understand what you have already said.  I understand that everything the dog needs, comes from you.  BUT, as I have asked from you, you have not explained how you can fulfill the dog's need to fight.  I want to know how the dog's need for self-preservation, as you have described, fulfilled when he has more motivation to fulfill that btween he and the helper.

the simple reason why it is wrong .tell me is the decoy bad guy or good guy.simple logic.and it does not matter who used this method just because a well known trainer uses this does not make it right and i do not care who the trainer is it could be my guru Didie,or Bernard or any other trainer you can think of it is wrong and nothing makes it right.you can use it and no one is going to stop u but that does not make it right. have a nice one.

Hi Don . Ok I understand your question ..... that is a matter of functions ..... personally ..i don't think dogs desire to fight ... I do not as you know from other posts use the word ' drive' .. there is no drive.. it is the intention , thought , feeling etc. of the animal . Animals stalk , pounce , chase , kill , and guard their kill to eat or reproduce. If an animal chases to kill and eat it is done swiftly . There is no fight.  Most animals as you know show display and communicate .. even to rival males .. they don't kill each other usually . . so called fighting increases one's risk of injury or death. Again like martial arts... the least bit of energy to accomplish your task . With some of my  of my dogs I teach them if you go to a helper one bite [ punch ] take him out. prey or defense. And as I described , pending the character of the dog and the temperament , one or two chases of a tug .. into the body for the bite !@ There is no agitation ... my dogs don't depend on the agitation .. they accomplish the task . Now I can influence the dog's perceptions  , feeling and thoughts about a helper .....as well as the helper himself making an impression on the dog.  If the helper is in the dogs mind stronger  .. what happens the dog comes off the bite. If the task is to injure  or kill .. then I don't believe the dog's feeling /thought / motivation centers on self -preservation . Other dogs may seem to be fighting the helper but they are trying to accomplish one of the tasks I just mentioned. I don't  see that as FIGHT. Any dog's   perception can be changed with expeience, With some of my dogs .. the helper walks right up to him in suit before the work ... he is dressed right beside my dog who is in a down .. In the dogs mind when he is on the suit the hekper is not going to kill him .  Now my personal protection dog looks at anyone I send him on as an enemy to be taken out . this perception is different . and still dog does not look at the helper  in a self preservatrion mode beacuase  my dog never had the imptession that he would ever lose to anyone . he does not think that he is going to lose . he is going in on the offensive .. in his mind it is the helper that should think about self preservation . We all have self preservation instincts   even humans , Would we go into combat with the fore thought and feeling that we would lose or be killed ? Now I have dogs that just love to bite .. they live to bite....they are agressive but they learn to controol their innate instincts because something better was alwways there.  BTW these are the easiest dogs for me to control and to fulfill their needs.. I can use two decoys or three and just keep sending them onto one , a call out and send to the nexrt a call out and so on ! whether in  a defensive or a prey mindset. So you know my take on fight .....BUT let's substitue the word to aggress. Some dogs have the need to aggress... i have seen some dogs, IMO with just plain ol' POOR geneitcs others with good high aggression! A well balanced clear headed dog  should learn to self -control it's aggression .[ agression itself is another topic , how do we define aggression ?]  I can have my personal protection dog sitting next to me and a man walk two feet in front and threaten us .. in the dog's mind probably here is looking to defend /self preservetion .... but AUS is AUS. He has learned that no matter what .. he is safe .. he has no fear  / concearns  .. and from confidence comes  less the need to be vioelnt.

Alpha dog, I had posted a reply in depth but I guess it was clipped out which is not unusual.The depth of my post went into great detail about Karl Fuller etc.Oh Well..no big deal.

You shouldn't let that stop you from competing, Rainhaus.  I think most who responded to the original poster said toss the e-collar.