Agression with E-Collar - Page 5

Rainhaus -- Karl Fuller ... the name i am familiar with .and some of his notoriaty...But I do know his ideas or philosophy ...  I am interested in everybody and what they have to say . Please if you will make your post again . I am interested in your thoughts as well. I thinkrgeads like this is for the betterment of evreybody .. I am always open to better myself  and listen to the words of all - I get the impression it was long ... but  if there is value . especailly for new and experienced .. even more please re-post. Thanks

I will but not today.Yes it was long but positive.Warm regards,Candace

the best info taken from this thread is the fact that there are many different styles of training a dog the same thing.  one must have a real good understanding of their dog to know what method will work best for THEM and their DOG!

dont like e-collar dont use it.  if you are going to use it, then find someone who can help you teach it correctly.

dont like helper or 3rd party correcting your dog, dont use it.  find another way that you are comfortable with.

in the interest of keeping a good topic going,  if you have an objection to a particular style of training, please state your reason(s) why.  i find it annoying when someone states that they would never do something, and dont give their opinion why.  it is also helpful if you would explain how you train your dogs, and if it matters in what venue you train them for.

now, back to the topic.  i have used e-collar for out, along with other ob. commands.  before i do, i know that my dog has been taught and understands the command he is given.  i introduce the electric stimulation at the same time i give the dog a correction on the fur saver or pinch.  then i phase out the physical correction and only use the electric.  my dog understands that the electric stimulation is a correction for not performing the command given.   i cant find who said it, but it is a correction from me, given from a distance without the use of a long line.  i have seen too many dogs "know" when the long line is on and stay clean, only to get dirty when the line comes off.    yes i will agree that dogs can become "collar wise".  that is why i train my dogs until the behavior i desire becomes a habit. (staying clean, and outing without need for the correction)

i have used the 3rd party and helper corrections also.    as said before, you better make sure the people helping you know what they are doing. 

john

Don I re-read your first post.. although i discussed fight -- here is one even before aggression or 'fight ' as you term : I had a Jeck noricum and Lasso V, Neuenberg grandson ... one day I got called to the emergency room ... I was unable to feed this dog for 24 hours.... Think he was hungry ? well i went to feed him and a ball fell out of my pocket and rolled down the hill . this dog snubbed his food bowl to go chase the ball and retrieve it .No helper here .. but the prey in him over rode the food hunger .. yes? I thought that was the most interesting behavior I saw in a while. All that i could surmise : at that point in time his innate tendencies .. a prewired genetic behavioral disposition .. had more pull over another physiological condition ...  I guess this is similar to a dog wanting a prey object / sleeve rather than eating. But i know if i called him off the ball .. he would have stopped and returned as usual. As stated before the relationship to the helper can be manipulated by the context , how we train , and how the helper has and is at present behaving /viewed by the dog.. But this i can say .. your relationship with your dog should supercede EVERYTHING ... innate tendencies , environmeental forces , threats and it's view and feelings about helpers [ assuming the dog is mature .. don't think a pup won't be fearful of a aggressive helper. just like you wouln't put a 10 year old in the boxing ring . beacause the relationship has not grown with both of you two enough for the other stuff ]

As usual, great post, John.  Thank you.   I would only add  paragraphs make it easier for old eyes like mine to read long posts. 

Ok a decent thread with some knowlegable people posting. I'll bite. This is hopw I train an out......

When I start playing ball with a puppy, I trade the ball for a piece of hot dog while saying "out" This acomplishes several things,

1) teaches the puppy to play with you.

2) The dog learns that when he gives up the ball, he gets something positive. He brings the ball back, lets go, and gets something else good. Eliminates any conflict with the handler or giving something up. Dog learns the word association.

Next I go to two balls. Since the dog is already conditioned to the idea that I spit out the ball and get something I like equally well,and by now understands the word association, I continue my fetch games and trade him one ball for another. The dog learns if I drop the ball, another one gets thrown for me.

3) Next I move to playng tug. I play tug, let him win the tug. He already is conditioned to the word "out: is already conditioned to outing= I get to play some more.

4) From there, I get the dog to out the tug while I am still holding it. Tug goes limp, I start attracting with a second tug in the outher hand. When the dog is about to let go, I give the out command, and play tug with the second tug. The key is not giving the command and expecting the dog to obey, but to read when the dog is about to let go, give the command, and play again. This way the dog is doing everything by his own volition, not being forced to do so.

5) Next step is to work the out during play with only one tug. By now the dog fully understands the word and understands that by letting go he gets another one. The difference here is, he does not get another one, but the same one. So you lose the tool of the second tug, which will probably make the dog less likely to want to give the first one up. So now is where I begin to use a little correction. The toy goes dead, the dog soes not out, I give slight corrections with a leash and collar, the dog lets go, and he gets a re-bite on the same tug.

6) Once the dog does this consistantly, and without any correction, I add a placement command. For those who do a bark and hold, you can now use it to your advantage. I have never trained a bark and hold, do an out guard. So the game now includeds the dog outing and going into a position before they get the bite. Play, give the out command, which by know he should be doing without correction, and give a placement command. The placement command should already be solid through the OB. So if the dog does not go into the placement command, he gets help from the leash and/or correction. By this point it shold not take much.

Con't

Now if you go to the decoy. If you choose to use decoy correction, it is exactly the same game. You can start by using two sleeves, or you can use one fo a re-bite. By now the dog completly understands the word association and that when the "prey" goes dead, the out command is given, the dog lets go, and the game begins again.

Viola, your dog outs. When he/she is doing this, you gradually increase the fight in the decoy.

Now if you use an e-collar, the dog has to be taught how to turn the collar off (this is escape training) I start by turning the collar to a very low level. Juast enough to make the dogs ear twitch. Then I let the dog roam about, turn the collar on and call the dog to me (which he already knows is a good thing) as soom as the dog turns to come to me, the collar gets turned off. Once the dog understands that by obeying a command, the collar gets turned off, you go back to step #2 with the two balls, and work your way up to the decoy.

Viola, your dog outs. Taught with very little compultion, if any at all.

Now as the dog matures and more fight is brought by the decoy, you will have to turn the collar up some, but since he/she already completly understands the command and the game, it is all good.

I have never, ever not seen this work.

The problem people habve with the e-collar is they put it on the dog, the dog has no idea what it is, then fry the dog to get them to out. Which is what i am assuming is the case with the original poster. One of tow things happens when you do this. A soft dog will go into avoidance and quite. A strong dog will bring more fight.

That will be $2500.

Please make your check or money order out to Get a Real Dog

For me it is very much the same except step 5, is during obedience sessions.  Example:  heel a number of steps, play with the tug or ball, dog must sit, out, then repeat, repeat, repeat.  I use the ball/tug as reward or to bring up drives after a correction, and always the dog must out.  I always try to help my young dog by making sure  that  whatever I use, (tug or ball) it is truly dead before I ask the young dog to out because pulling on it or whatever even slightly,  can cause the young dog to automatically pull back.

the best part of these threads is it gives me new variations of things i have done or do.  need more topics like this.

john

Get a real dog..... nice out example...- ---- the electronic collar.. another tool .. all things have their place. But , with this  qualification .. i am about as well versed as anyone on the use of the electronic collar... it is not the best option to problem solve or to get a dog to out - that simple - ... First . why can't you use your head .. can't one think ? or is the dog here the superior intrellect that we cannot control our dogs with thinking  ? please  contemplate that.  secondly i have seen inumerable mistakes made .. and numerous times the dog figures out something. Here's one ... one guy had a dog that would not 'out ' .. wouldn't budge from the sleeve. this dog was the ultimate in hardness and aggression ... so he wired the dog ....  the dog wouldn't come off the bite .. the shock put him [ as you  would say ] more drive [ bite harder and fiercer] ! so now he comes up with the idea to wire the sleeve so that the dog would open it's mouth when stimulated to come off the bite. it worked for a month ... HUH .... one day .. the dog bite the sleeve came off the bite ... found another place to bite .. the helpers legs !!@ The electronic collar should  be the last of the lasts of all resorts if that !  he had another dog .. same temperament... yup ..used the e-collar ..one around ther neck and another on the dogs testicles... great .. really great way to train . i would have done the same to him if it were my dog. ---so now .. how is he going to compete and with his voice alone and have a reliable dog ? the one time the dog gets a command and the collars aren't on ... well .. the dog just learned the lesson .. collars on 'out' collars off , no out' . A great dog for Sch  and now i suppose ,,,, you can take this dog anywhere anytime..... IMO listen to people with experience on this board ..like get a real dog.. and some others . ..... BTW i hope you all have the notion .. don't do anything to your dog .. that you wouldn't want done to you .