Agression with E-Collar - Page 6

I want to be perfectly clear to everyone on this thread that I am not totally against using the E-collar.Correct me if I am wrong they were first introduced in field trial dogs..particularly labs.Well then shit everyone wanted one and they were easily sold with no education of them.They were simply used as a training device because people had become very lazy with their dogs..a quick fix.In the show ring the bolt was put to the individuals rear so they would drive away from it.Using it on testicles..OH MY GOD!!The bat(whip) for racehorses soon became under the cover utililizing this."Innate tendencies...genetically pre-wired behavior disposition" will always come out." if one can observe enough."This "Ball sense" is so over blown.etc etc.I would like to remind everyone on this thread of Karl Fuller.His golden shovels = SchH 3 were obtained pre him having to go to somewhat of show were gained as he knew his dogs.It didnt matter what they looked like as long as that individual could run all day without breaking down.No food or water.He didnt have to teach the dog to protect him and he knew of the stability of the dog by eye in watching how the individual dealt with everyone of the flock and reaction to each of them whether small or large.Those wandering including any predator threatoning.His ideal dog would judge instinctively with no forthright conditioning of behaviour by the master.He could judge how a dog layed low in the grass with patience to herd.Judgement was placed by his eye whether the individual did a bite equally to all of the flock...This was a no no.By Karls little ways of teaching..by hand signals..whistling..very little vocal..just variance of voice etc..His movement and the dogs movement by looking checking back on the master.Karl could judge the dog.If Karl would have been threatoned by a predator..The dog would have left his post because the dogs eyes were always on him.No need for teaching a heel..either the dog has it or not without lead or collar.

Rainhaus:  I think everyone here has much respect for Karl Fuller and Kirschental kennel.  Can you please tell us how you train the guard or aus for schutzhund? 

Sueincc, I do not compete in SchH as it has become just yet another sport.

sue, im not sure she trains for schutzhund. 

as many HORROR stories as people can come up with on the negative ways an electric collar can be used, i can match you with the same number (or more) of trainers who have used it and won national compitions. 

what does that mean?  not much unless you can look beyond the fact that e-collars used in the proper manner can produce outstanding results.   

john

 Training involves choices .. the e-collar is an aversive stimulus ... if you were a dog would you rather be trained with something more in the line of motivational ?  Also .. training .. that should be for the love of the dog and companionship ...not about how many points or trophies one gets. i have seen some dogs even at an international competition .. i can see exactly how they trained ... and by some .. i was not impressed !  And to answer Don .. I wrote so many times about the need to understand our dogs and to attend to their needs/ wants etc.. soryy don .. i didn't quite get what you asked regarding a dog foregoing a hot dog beacuse it preferred to fight , until i read your post a 3rd time.. because to me it is so obvious ! Simple ... so simple . You just told me what the dog needs/ wants / desires ... in your terminology 'A fight ' . Well .. then that if you are the handler what you offer to your dog if he needs to so call fight ! this is similar to what i do with my GSDs not only to get them to AUS but with thate aus to return to Fuss ! 1. the dog understands 'out ' that must be taught first . GARD offered one way for thr handler to teach .. just as long as the dog knows 'OUT'. then what I do is either have a tuig in my back pocket or training vest .. you could also substitute a sleeve ... when the dog is then on the helper bite suit /sleeve whatever .. I call the dog out and simultaneously [timing here is critical] slap the tug loud and hard to get the attention of my dog and offer him a bite / fight as you call it. From there it is a matter of adding distance and if i want a reacll .. I Aus / fuss at the time of the tug slap .. Last of all i can phase out the usae of the tug or with some dogs randomly use the tug/sleeve for outing /fuss. Can also extrapolate this exercise to teach the call off ! That sinple .. the handler gives the dog what it needs from the helper himself.  Sometimes .. i think .. the dogs are smarter than we are .

of cours i would love to have been taught with motivation.   back when i was growing up my parents never heard of giving a kid a "time out".   a quick swat on the butt and a stearn "now do what your mother told you to do" is what i got.    now that parents raise their kids this way,,,,,,,,,,,,,,what can i say, look at the majority of kids today.......

i know child raising and dog raising are 2 different things, so lets not go there.  the fact of the matter is what makes the lasting impression.  being asked, or being told?

john

When I was young I had a very healthy respect for the fact that my parents, (if pushed hard enough) could  "take me out" (as in Bill Cosbys meaning, and not out to dinner) .   Through "pressure" , they taught me "I MUST" which many times,  got me through so many of the "distractions" rebelious teenagers face daily! 

Jlechter 18 .... a few comments for us all to contemplate .. Incorrect .. raising dogs is exactly like raising children with the exception of thinking ability . this has been proven over 10 years ago at the Universitry of Maine , USA , They have several psychologucal stidies in regards to how raising / teaching a dog ... is a animal model coerrelated to raising xhildrem . learning theory extrapolates to all animals . skinner trianed bvirds , even rats problem solve. This is also the nature of the GSD .. they can deduce .. in terms of learning by association then onto "if this ... then that" . Now isn't it not better to have the dog itself choose to do something rather than coerce it? Also it has been proven in animal studies that a behavior that is operantly conditioned / taught is MOORE reliable and MORE  permanent ! Karen Pryor taught dolphins .. and it is not so easy to reprimand a dolphin ! but look at the tasks they accomplish . Now I am not saying that one should not reprimand  blatant refusal to act. but i also see reprimands when technically the dog was right in what it did. Not only that .. opk an e-collar to give a correction ... i don't know about anyone else .. i want the dog to respond to me my presence. like other posted . as children we responded to mom and dad .. that is exactly the point !

alpha

you want the dog to respond to your presence.  what about the times when you are not around, ie, bark and hold, long bite.

how many dogs nip, or full bite the sleeve when they come around the blind and mom/dad are not there to tell them no?  add in the insecure dog who barks, nips, then pokes his/her head out of the blind to see where the handler is.  im sure some of those dogs are questioning why they didnt get corrected for biting the helper.  then you have dogs who are slow or no out after the long bite.  usally because mom/dad are at the other end of the field,  only to let go when the handler arrives by the dog.

as sue eluded to in her last post, i want my dog to respond to my presence, but i also expect the same behavior from them when i am not around.  learn to work through the tuff times by yourself, and do what you have been taught.

just as a lighter note, i have to get me one of those bumper stickers that says

"my german shepherd dog is smarter than your honor student"   i know that they are more well behaved than some of the kids out there.

john

I actually had one of those bumper stickers, but I got a new one and covered up the old one.  My new one says "My German Shepherd is Smarter than our President"  A friend told me she had seen one and it made me laugh, so I had to get one.