Silho shepherds - Page 2

I own a King Shepherd I purchased from the "breed originator" Shelly Watts-Cross. A very beautiful and sweet dog, he has hips that are absolutely terrible. I paid for a show/breeding quality dog, and I got a dog that couldn't get up on another to breed even if I wanted to breed him (I don't - I have ethics, unlike his breeder.) The breeder knows how bad his hips are, yet she is still selling pups from his sire because they are beautiful and she can charge $1500.00 to over $2000.00 (I paid more than that) for his pups. I believe that is terribly unethical.

I know Malamute was mixed into Shiloh "Shepherds" to get the larger bone/size, smaller ears and thicker coat. Maybe other breeds too, but I know the Malamute is one for sure. Shiloh and King Shepherds are not GSDs, nothing like them - they are mutts with fake registrations.

Colorado Mtn Boy: I am not familiar with the breeder you refer to(it does not matter), but just in principle I would like to respond to your post regarding breeding the sire. Does the sire have bad hips? Then he should not be bred in my opinion. If he has good/acceptable hips, then it is another story. Just because one dog in the litter has Hip Dysplasia, does not mean you have to stop using the sire. Now if every pup in every litter had HD, I would agree you have a huge problem. There are big name GSDs out there that have produce dogs with varying degrees of HD. One dog(which I will not publicly name) has sired pups in Germany where half of the pups in the litter had HD and could not be A-stamped. A breeder friend of mine revealed the has spoke with 2 other breeders that had the same problem with the same sire. They would never use the sire again, he said. Both parents bring something to the table from a genetic standpoint, and at the moment of conception, the genetic blueprint is laid for that fertilized egg, to include HD if it eventually manifests itself in the dog. HD happens. No one can guarentee their puppies will not have HD. They can research the parents and with their best guestimate bring together a pair of dogs that hopefully produce genetically winning specimen(free of HD), but after that is out of the breeders hands. Nature takes over after that. Breeding a sire after discovering one of it's offspring has HD, does not make a person, unethical. Now if the puppy was warranted and the breeder does not keep his word in making things right for you, THEN we can talk about ethics. There is even the posibility that the female brought HD to the genetics table. Do you know for sure it was the sire? Maybe both of them played a part, resulting in your pup having HD. My point is the sire, ALONE is not ALWAYS responsible for HD. Just one opinion. Stephen

I agree that one apple doesn't spoil the whole box. However, this dog has sired many litters of DJD pups from many different mates. I started my own internet group site on Yahoo regarding the breed and people with questions about it. I have heard from a lot of owners who have had serious health problems with their dogs, bad hips being almost a certainty. The one commonality all the members of my group have is a kind of serecy amongst the breed originator and her small group of associates. The breeder required a PENNhip test done at 6 months old. When I found out that my dog's results were worse than any yet recorded for King Shepherds I contacted the breeder immediately. My goal was merely to find out what could be done to help my dog's health since I was new to very large dogs. Before I could ask any questions at all, she said "Well if you can't prove that you've given him all the supplements I required in my contract it is void." It sounded REALLY defensive to me. I said I wasn't worried about the contract, that I just wanted to do what I could for his health. She repeated that I needed to give him all the supplements she required in her contract, and she indicated that they would help to some extent now that he had developed hip problems, but that since I hadn't given them to him from when I received him that that had contributed to his hip problems. She was blaming ME for his bad hips. Through the course of our conversation she said If I could have shown that I had given him the supplements that I could have returned the puppy to her to be destroyed and she would replace him with another puppy. Excuse me, but I had grown to love this poor dog and wasn't about to give him up to be "Destroyed" not to mention the fact that I didn't want another one of her puppies. Since I hadn't given him the supplements she required (at the advice of TWO different Vets in my area)it was a moot point anyway. I was told that they didn't give refunds under any circumstances. I'd say there was a problem with her ethics. It sounds like she runs a puppy mill machine, and that she has all her defense mechanisms down to a science.

coloradomtboy If I got a dog whose contract had in it that you had to give the puppy suppliments to insure good hips...that would be a red flag to me....I feel bad for you and your dog. If you give him MSM & glucosimine now it will help with any pain and help him from losing more tissue etc.

Well if the dog's hips were that bad, the suppliments probably would not have helped anyway. HOWEVER, when you buy a puppy and they give you a warranty based on suppliments and a specific feed, along with other "requirements", if you do not follow their instructions, you have breeched the contract and they do not have to honor the warranty. I require a specific feed, AND no spay or neuter for 24 months. If you breech that then why should I replace the dog? A vet can offer another feed and spay/neuter recommendations, but I say, if you take his advice over mine, when you have a problem, have HIM replace your puppy if you have problems, don't contact me. I know that is not what you want to hear, but when people buy a puppy, they are happy, smiling, nodding in the affirmative on every issue discussed and then they go off their own way and take advice of the vet, other breeders, their past experience and not expecting problems do not comply with the conditions that they at first agreed to when they bought the puppy. Then the puppy develops problems that were not expected, and WHAM. The breeder is trying to protect him/herself, the buyer is seeking redress, the puppy is stuck in the middle and it is just not a pretty picure. I have had one dog returned for hip problems. I gave the choice of a new puppy or a refund. The family chose another puppy. I gave them the choice of returning the puppy with the poor hips or keeping it. They returned the pup to me and she will live her life out here with us, as long as the pain is acceptable/manageable. There does not seem to be pain now, but the x-rays show definate poor hips. Some breeders give the ultimatum of returning the defective puppy to get a replacement. I think this is not really acceptable, because most people let their hearts make the decision for them and they keep the defective puppy and develope anomosity towards the breeder. I say the person bought an obstensible healthy puppy and they should have one, whether they return the defective pup or not. I will not give you your money back and let you keep the puppy, but I will let you keep the dog and give you another puppy. All I need is to see the x-rays and I know if a replacement is warranted or not. To be honest, I just saw the topic and if I had know this about Shiloh Shepherds, I would have not even responded. I assummed after reading down we were talking about the standard breed GSD. I think the overall principle still applies, however.

Her immediately defensive attitude before I had even asked a question was a red flag to me. Her polished delivery of a defense tells me my concerns were justified. She has obviously done this in the past. I wanted advice on treatment and to inform so she could alter her breeding practices. What I got was blame and posturing. The fact that so many other people have contacted me about problems with their dogs from this breeder or their offspring tell me my situation is not an isolated event. The breed is not the issue, the breeding practices are. I believe hers to be unethical, but of course that is just my opinion based on my experiences. The nice thing about a forum like this is the opportunity to share ideas and exchange viewpoints. Am I wrong? Can any of you experts or amateurs tell me that I am responsible for giving my dog bad hips by failing to follow the advice of two different doctors and not giving the supplements? Was her response appropriate? Is her practice of continuing to breed a dog that has knowingly produced so many poor health puppies ethical? I am asking a genuine question there, I'm not being sarcastic. I am not a professional breeder. I have always owned dogs, but I am a school teacher, not an animal health specialist in any way. My experience and my best judgement tells me that my assessment is correct, but I'll be glad to listen and consider opposing viewpoints.

IMO you are not responsible for your dog's having bad hips; it's the breeder's responsibility to replace or refund on him. Not giving him those supplements did not cause severe HD. Requiring buyers to jump through all sorts of hoops in order to collect on a guarantee is pet shop tactics. She should just suck it up, do the right thing and then do us all a favor and permanently retire from breeding dogs. You didn't say how old you dog is, but if he's young don't give up on him just yet. Some young dogs and puppies go through a very painful stage as youngsters, but seem to outgrow the pain and function quite well as adults. The glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM is a good supplement. Some dogs have horrendous looking hips on their xray, but aren't bothered much after maturity. On the other hand I've seen dogs with severe lamness issues that were very mildy dysplastic on the xray. My heart goes out to you. Been there, done that with an unhealthy GSD bred by an AKC judge and former officer of the GSDCA. He didn't care either. Do the best for him you can, and he will repay you many times over. My sickly dog did far more for me than I ever could have for him.

I also own a "King Shepherd" from the same breeder,also purchased as show/breeder quality.We purchased her 8 months ago as an 18 month old with the agreement that she would be bred to a Grand Champion male of that breed. Nothing at purchase time was said of the extreme technicalities that needed to be done before the "club" would approve a breeding for each and every time a mating would occur. My dog was given all the required vitamins,supplements etc,from puppyhood however the result was the same-BAD HIPS. Not only bad hips,poor temperament (hiding, bolting, urinating and defecating etc.)Upon notification of this dog's problems,the breeder's response was the dog is only guaranteed for severe/crippling dysplasia.(She has mild to moderate with arthritic changes.)Also the breeder at that time told me that only a Penn Hip exam was acceptable.(We had an OFA done) From my experience,this breeder has no ethics or conscience. She and her four-breeder clique have monopolized the breeding of this spurious breed to line their own pockets. The FBI and the white collar crime unit have a web site (www.ic3.gov) whereby a defrauded party can make a report. If enough people do this, maybe Shelly and her so-called club can be prosecuted and put out of business!

I don't think you will be glad to listen to any opposing viewpoints. My comments were not focused toward you specifically but to a general situation. Your asking if you are responsible for giving your dog bad hips shows you are in an agitated state, far past being sarcastic. You, I and everyone knows you are not guilty of "giving" your dog HD. Sorry I responded, did not intend to offend you. I only wanted to try and show both sides of the coin. Sorry your breeder is not working with you. Truly hope things work themselves out for you. Stephen