Gone But Not Forgotten - Page 10

It's very interesting to me that no one has come on board to deny that anabolic steroids are used to beef up male showlines.

As for fever and flu causing heart disease, im not too sure, I still think genetics are too be blamed.

I just finished a book entitled "The New Knowledge of Dog Behavior" by Clarence Pfaffenberger, written 1965. In it he discusses the relationship between environmental and genetics: "Because we inherit every physical, mental, temperamental and emotional trait ... nothing that ever happens in our life will add or take away from what we inherited, unless it is removed by surgery. ... Despite the fact that environment has a profound effect on every living thing and modifies the manner in which inherited traits are used, only what we inherit determines what we can be. ... What is often referred to as an "ideal climate" can help an individual reach his potential or nearly his potential.  Poor environment can cripple the development of an individual until he can never achieve the potential he was born with, even if an ideal climate is later provided."  p 17-18

From this perspective a poor environment can bring out underlaying genetic weaknesses.  e.g. HD - There is a great debate whether HD is genetic or environmental (though it seems most professionals like vets & researchers are of the genetic camp) from Pfaffenberger's position it has to be there genetically for it to happen.  Like HD or Heart Disease these conditions may be laying dormant, only coming to the surface when the conditions are right - when the environment supports instead of suppresses these unwanted conditions.  So the quandary: Why do some not get a cold or flu, others get a cold or flu and get over it, still others get a cold or flu and get secondary infection and then some of these then die?  I would guess from Pfaffenberger pov it's all in the genes. i'm not saying this as the end all - if far to broad & simplistic - but imo it's an interesting point of discussion.

Blitzen,

I iwsh I could contribute. I can tell you that much - I would never use it, I don't know of anybody doing it and I can't imagine why?

Justcurious,

I think where is a lot of truth in it. But again: What can a breeder do without a profound knowledge of medical research into some illnesses, causes of death etc.? Please tell me? Weed out suspicious cases based on rumour or third hand knowledge and/or hearsay? We would be in a dangerous genetic bottleneck!!! Unless you can identify carriers of any genetic defects, what is there to weed out? I have been trying to say that all a long. It is the responsiblity of the breeder and the breed orgnization to keep up with the latest research. Did you know that the SV is doing a great job with that? There is currently a back study going on in Germany. I can see in the future that we all have to get our dogs' spines certified along with the hips and elbows.

Cheers!

Blitzen ive seen some imported german males here in my country. They look very un-natural, like Rhinos. So your right about the steriods. Silbersee how about not breeding lines which tend to through out health issues? Yasko has been discussed earlier. Ive heard of numerous dogs from the yasko lines, suffering from health issues.

Aristian,

that is nonsense. Yasko lines do not in general produce any more specific health problems than other lines. And even if it did, what is behind Yasko? His father Ursus going to the great producers Zamb and Jeck, and his mother Conni being closely linebred on the great Cello Roemerau. Oh boy, if we had to weed that out, what would be left? That is why I mentioned the genetic bottleneck. But I think that we are "talking against the wall" here. What I did notice is that nobody here with a "strong" opinion is an experienced breeder, or am I wrong in that assumption?

What can a breeder do without a profound knowledge of medical research into some illnesses, causes of death etc.? - silbersee,

i don't know the answer and i highly doubt there is just one but i think we can get a handle on improving the breed if we have open discussions about qualities and flaws that we want to breed for and those we wish to breed out, especially in the most popular breeding dogs.  also we must stop having perfection as the goal because it makes people defensive and communication ceases and communication is our greatest tool.  we try and simplify the process of selective breeding to make it easy but it's both an art & a science and needs careful consideration. for example: breeding 'top dog' to 'top bitch' is a gamble because these 2 dogs may not balance each other genetically.  instead of using this simplistic method we must take the time to learn more about the genetic history as well as the individual qualities of the dogs we are breeding,  like any professional a breeder needs to develop their skills and the best way to do this is to talk about the successes and failures be it in one dog, one line or the whole breed.

we keep looking for 'the dog'; there is never just one that is 'the end all'. this is the downside of competitions, which are great but don't always best serve the 'big picture' especially when the results are the main influence of breeding choices. it has it's value in that it can give us some info about an individual but it's too small to use as the only breeding criterial or even a major criteria but it definitely needs to be thrown into the mix. the details of a dog's pedigree has a key role to play, any info is better than no info, but the more we know the better our choice will be. this is the reason why knowing cause of death of genetically popular dogs is a valuable tool for making future breeding choices but this info must be put in context of any environmental influences that played a major role in shaping the dog.

so it's complicated:) not an easy job to preform well that is why even though there have been many many breeders yet so very few names really stand out. there are dogs that genetically balance one another and lines that genetically balance other lines and some lines that may take a few generations to show their importance, to show how they have genes of real value to the breed; and talented breeder juggles all this and more. to complicate things even further you have a wide range of personal perferences of various breeders as well as buyers.  all this needs to be considered if you are breeding large numbers of dogs. it's complicated but if one chooses to walk through the confusion they will come out the other end with valuable insight and true skills.

the other option is just taking 2 dogs you like for whatever reason and breed them and end up with perhaps great dogs, or most likely a range of dogs - some great some pitiful; but since we have the tools to run test, to keep records, put to on trials ... why not use them?  why not put our heads together work with one another and produce dogs that are not identical but exist within a range that all fit the standard and not pit one type over another.

maybe all this comes down to is kennel blindness?  it is hard for a breeder to admit a fault or issue in their own breeding programs, or to admit a problem in their prized dog that they have invested alot of time and money into. trust me, I know, I have been there.  I had a V rated sch3 import that I thought was made of gold.  I tried to keep dogs back out of her to build onto the line, but it never worked.  I finally had to realize that even though I loved this dog dearly, her offspring just weren't good enough to be used for breeding.  her bitches were having reproduction issue's, her males were maturing to be way over sized, and I was having issue's with cancer at an early age. I know of several 1/2 siblings to my bitch who died of cancer.  I have totally removed all of her lines from my breeding program.  basically left me with nothing and I have had to start all over.

But until we all can put past our own pride and work together and be honest and open about health issue's and causes of death, the breed will go no where.   as I have stated before, people involved in other breeds will tell you that the gsd breed is in sad shape.  Most vets, as soon as they have a gsd brought in to them, start looking for the worst thing possible wrong with the dogs.  In my area, most of the vets have very poor opinions of the breed health wise and of the breeders.

Anabolic steroids... I heard rumours of their usage 5 - 6 years ago but I've heard nothing since, Blitzen.  It's a shocking thought but not surprising. 

Look at some of the dogs for sale on this database; bitches of 5 years (and more) that have had several litters... now to be sold... at a "reasonable price" or "cheap" to have yet more litters!  They are traded like secondhand cars and it's heartbreaking to see some of them.

Honesty... how?  How do you persuade some breeders to look at the bigger picture when they're only interested in the money in their pocket?  More/better control?  I don't know Uber Land.

Missbeeb, IMO only one thing will right this breed; when the price of the dogs drops down so far that only those in it for the right reasons will remain. That might happen sooner than later. Let's hope.........

I too deplore the wholesaling of GSD's as if they were broken kitchen appliances. Ads for pregnant bicthes are especially upsetting to me. Although I've had a number of good people try to explain to me why it's done, I still don't get it. I don't think it's right to treat these dogs as if they are livestock heading to market.

 How do you persuade some breeders to look at the bigger picture when they're only interested in the money in their pocket?

there is no rule that can't be broken or bent beyond recognition so you talk their talk and simply don't buy from them. instead you work with breeders like uber land who do the right thing even if it cost them their whole breeding program and they have to start over continue to support them. support those willing to do what is best instead of those who do what is the most profitable.