Why do they breed them like this? - Page 11

Jetta, you stated he was short coupled.  I corrected you because he has a long back and will not pass KK1 because of that and lack of rear angulation and proper croup.  Now, he may make a great working dog if his temperament is good.  He cannot be a zuchschau dog (show dog).  But alas only a very small percentage of WL breeding can (3-5%).

Preston can you please show me where you get your numbers from? Are you saying that only 5 to 6% can pass, or actually get rated? Big dif. in my opinion. Thanx. BTW I agree some of our working GSD are ugly lol :) but oh well we still like them :).

i think the problem with them being bred out of the civil service sector,comes from the fact they are selling a lot of high drive czech dogs to use in law enforcement and the likes .and its pretty well wrapped up as to who brokers these dogs to the working sector .they are locked up in contracts. maybe the gsd would hold its rights and good name if the dogs to be used were bought and sold under a changing of the guard so to speak.andkeep a more open mind on who and were to buy the dogs from.

Preston, who the hell said he was a show dog.The pup in the picture is clearly a WL SABLE  so maybe you need your eyes checked.I did not get him to prance around the ring and get midnight titels. If I wanted a show dog I would have gotten a show dog.(that will never happen) Also who are YOU to say weather or not he will get (when the time comes) a KKL1 are you an SV judge? What ever rating he does get will be given by a qualified SV judge so please stop putting your foot in your mouth.

If you read my post again you will read "I happen to think that my WL pup is put toether pretty well" key word is "I" I never asked for your opinion on my pup.  You never did answer my question on "how you can make a statement like you did from a pic.

I found this pic, so just because you think you are so smart. and can tell from a stack pic how a dogs working ability is does this WL SABLE look like a "nice pet and wonderful family companion"

J, I never said your GSD couldn't work or be a working dog. You came up with that assumption and attributed it to me. You are the one who knows what he can do and what his potential is.  Does your dog have good working temperament as specified by the Captain and as described in the standard?  That is what you will have to determine for yourself.

When I stated he would make a good pet, I meant pet vs. show dog, nothing else.  You brought up the conformation by stating he was short coupled.  He is anything but short coupled.  Talk to any top competitor/winner in the german bundessieger profung shows.  They will tell you that only a very small % will be able to get the KK1 (I was told a number of times it is in the range of 1 out of 20 or so, 5%, or 5-6%).  This is because most WL profung competitors don't emphasize conformation.  Their breeding choices are often made on winning only with no concern for show looks.   There are some folks who choose to breed to WL dogs who are KK1, V rated and top winners in profung.  These are very rare stud dogs to be sure and worth their weight in gold.

Personally, I like a GSD that is close to what the standard specifies, that is, looks like a GSD should, moves like a GSD should, and acts like a GSD should.  Many could care less about the standard and just want a GSD with ideal temperament.  That's fine for those folks, if that is what they want.

Quote from Xeph: "Lack of angulation is just as bad as too much (can you say ACL tears?).  "

Hmm the correlation of angulation at the croup and stifle with ACL tears is not clear from the literature.  The angle that is MOST important in regards to ACL tears if the Tibial plateau to the LONG axis of the tibia, irregardless of angulation of the croup or the femur.  Being Cow-hocked does put dogs at risk as does being spayed or neutered too young, over weight, and underconditioned.  Just an FYI that's all

As Gustav said. Perhaps it is just that, a mindset. Just how does one define "work" . 100 years ago, work for a GSD was tending to the flock. If i am not mistaken (and i sometimes am)  it was only later (circa 1920) that civil duties became part of the GSD's  "Work". 

While I could not agree more that what are commonly refered to today as "working dogs" are far superior in agility, I am not so completely convinced that they are as well suited to tending sheep all day (should the standard be changed in favour of a dog more suited to civil work?). The shorter, squarer body, less angulation, is possibly less adept in providing the motion required for a balanced and effortless gait.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0

Sunsilver;

It's so hard to tell just what will happen next. Let's be frank, a still picture can be very deceptive. Look at the first picture of the dog pulling hard on the leash then watch the above video. Note that his femur is  parallel with his hock, your dog's hock will not hit the ground. Also in the above video if you watch closely there is a point in which the dog pushes a little harder from the front and becomes a little unbalanced throwing the next stride out. Perhaps we should recognise that only machines perform the same act time and time again without deviation.

As far as the front of the dog in your example, is concerned, unless you can see through him, and watch the stride follow through, it's hard to know just how well he extens. There is no doubt that this dog lifts, but remember, these dogs are put through training such as pulling dead weights, runing through water and sand ... Now think of a dog running through water, does he lift high?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that there arn't some horror stories out there, simply keep an open mind when looking at a stil picture, it is but a split moment in time.

I don't disagree rama...I also probably should have been more clear....my statement was more in reference to straight stifles (No shock absorption).  That is the reason most cited for why Chow Chow and Shar Pei people won't run their dogs in agility.  Straight stifles = no shock absorption = ACL (and other such) tears.

And Jetta...when you post your dog on a forum, chances are people are going to critique your dog, whether you asked for it or not.  ESPECIALLY when you say you believe your dog is well put together.  I also agree with jdadenton...the working lines are far superior to the show lines when it comes to civil work.  However, put them out for tending a flock and I believe they will be less efficient than SOME of the showlines (I've seen some nice ones, just like I've seen crappy ones) because they have no fronts and no rears, and they move like Coyotes instead of GSDs.  They have no reach in front and no drive off the rear because people have been focusing on jumping, and scaling ridiculously tall walls, and attacking a helper.  Things have been lost in the working line too.  I'd be afraid to put some working lines on sheep because their prey drive is so high, it's extremely hard to control, both by the dog, and by the handler.  Why herd a sheep when you can eat it?

J, since I didn't see a uniform in the first photo you posted and you made no mention of it, I assumed that your dog was not a professional police or service dog, but your personal pet.  I have had WL dogs that wouldn't koerklasse at level 1 which were great dogs (one was out of V rated high placing profung sire & dam--he was too long and short of rear angles--but he was a great dog and was totally fearless before he had any bitework training).  He was our family 24/7 in home pet and we enjoyed every day he lived with us for his ten years.  I have told you the truth as to how your GSD appears.  You can choose to believe it or not.  He has a lot of good qualities in his appearance but he is not short coupled, just the opposite.  He does have a very pleasing appearance overall, however.