Why do they breed them like this? - Page 13

Snapier, in reading further I have no knowledge of your amount of time in the breed so please accept my retraction of the last statement. I shall remove myself from this topic as I will not lower myself into personal attacks like some. Personal attacks to me signify insecurity and the adjective ignorance, and I donot wish to participate with people of this kind. 

Gustav I am not here to argue with you or any one. And I am not the kind of guy that takes things personally. Like I said I am not pro any line of GSD. I am somewhere in the middle. I want well balanced dog. The one from the past. The one I grew up around. Neither working or show line fully fulfill my idea of well rounded dog. I don't need high pray dog, not just don't need I don't want! I want balance in my dog, once I find it I'll be a happy man. I don't know what made you think that I am pro high drive dogs? The only reason that I own working lines is because that's the only thing I been able to come any where close to what I need. But you will never find me running and picking up the pick of the litter, as I will be looking for something in between and usually pick something that fits my criteria more. All my dogs have drives, but the kind of drives I need, neither one have over the top drives. I expect my dog to be perfect pet and family dog and be able to work when there is time to work. So far my new female fits the criteria nicely, but I still don't know where she will take me. Good luck with your breeding program.

Gustav, it's true.   Bern and Marko were awesome GSDs that could do anything.  They were "total German Shjepherds--good looking, good moving and did awesome courage tests.  After the early 1980's folks split the breed (ie bifurcated it).

After the bifurcation of the breed occurrred folks in both branches went way too far in their quest for winning at any cost.  It always comes down to the individual breeder who breeds what he wants for the reasons he has decided are best.  I always liked a good looking GSD with balanced temperament that wanted to dominate his territory, protect his family, and yet was good around children and friends.  The GSDs you mention were rock solid  good citizens like this, and yet they had pronounced defense when appropriate, and I mean pronounced as in extreme.

And don't forget the Busecker Schloss GSDs which hit like racing locomotives and yet were great family pets, super calm and very confident easy going GSDs. Plus some of them were conformation dogs too.

The dogs Gustav mentioned were the best examples of the breed to have come along in a very long time. Those dogs were much more to the standard than too many of the dogs today. And Herr Hahn and his dogs are missed today as well.

Hopefully you’re still with us, Gustav; especially since I don’t really think that our outlooks are really so far apart – probably more a situation of getting tangled up in definition and cross-purposes. I basically loathe this whole WL versus SL business, yet trapped by some idea that there’s got to be some sort of middle ground: going by some posters’ remarks, fat chance! As noted, there was a time when they harmoniously co-existed and competed in the same arenas.

Of course I’ve noticed the SL change for the worse, particularly in health, size and weight and temperament. Anecdotal rants hardly prove the rule but I well remember the dogs of my youth. Used to take them on public transport and wherever – never needed to give a care as to their reliability, steadiness or behavior (and they weren’t sweet and soft little sooks either!) Took it for granted! Used to cycle too for hours in end with some dog trotting alongside – enough stamina? – enough endurance? – such concerns never even came up! Bit different now! Maybe that’s why I also keep on plugging the importance of maintaining genetic diversity: Hochzucht breeding has in the main turned into mere repetition of what came before.

Totally agree that the GSD wasn’t created for showing, and I’ve mostly given up on it. Other than for events of German Sieger’s ilk/stature, and given the focus placed on looks or ‘prettiness/nice-ness” or some judge’s personal ideas on what constitutes fashionable conformation, together with actual direction the breed’s taken, I really can’t see how showing is meant to further the GSD (and that’s after putting aside overt local biases or the way it’s designed like some owner ego-messaging, musical-chairs game of pumping momentary ‘winners’ pup prices/sales!)  

And because of the way the two groups have genetically split, rudely generalizing here, I’d be first to agree that the Wienerau ‘show-dog’ lacks the higher drive or instincts that make for peak working performance, whereas the WL’s on the other hand have fallen way behind Standard’s anatomical stakes (with Standard’s innate ambiguity worth a chapter on its own?)

Now come the BUTS of course. No idea what your dogs are like look-wise but I couldn’t imagine owning one that didn’t look the GSD part or generally behaved like one – there wouldn’t be much point for me otherwise - by ‘look’ I suppose I mean something not all that different from current Wienerau type.

 

You also started off with statements to the effect that good anatomy automatically precludes working ability etc – apart from the large part played by an individual dog’s particular character/pshyche, it simply doesn’t tally with my experience. Maybe I’m just fortunate here but some of mine will work till they literally drop (the right ‘conditioning’ here helps too but let’s not go there). Of course we then also enter the murky world of what constitutes work, particularly since mine is mostly of the contrived kind. But have sold a couple of dogs to the Air Force without complaint.

Your animals obviously also strike a well-rounded and healthy medium, ‘fit for any occasion’, unlike some of the more extreme types extolled by posters here on a regular basis. Speaking of the latter only, whatever happened to ‘the right tools for the job’? How many of these specialty dogs in reality end up spending most of their days languishing in small kennels slowly going out of their brains? Either through plain owners’ ignorance or because these are simply too busy with their demanding modern lifestyles, or where dog is merely released for the odd training spell or some competition – testimony to owner’s training skills, if not ego? Dogs as these require space and need to be worked hard – and not just now and then. How many of the larger commercial set-ups have even got the time, whereas labor doesn’t come cheap. Or, how many average owners manage to retain total control at all times, or subject to the real tasks these dogs deserve?

Functioning within complex urban environment? (Well, in my case perhaps not all that complex, nor urban!) The point is, my lot also includes two ‘pure’ WL animals and although I’ve never had any real problems with neighbors/local authorities, the arrival of these two rascals rapidly changed all that - thrice in fairly quick succession in fact! One’s threatened with termination (that’ll be the day!) should another issue erupt, and banned from leaving the property without a muzzle. There’s also some nonsense about permanent kenneling which I simply ignore too of course. (Still, none of it, including the fines, quite equates to my notions of pleasurable dog ownership, Gustav!) And then, after diving head-first off a balcony that must be close to four meters high a fortnight ago in order to get at a passing cat, its left front leg is now fixed in gypsum (proudly applied by yours truly by the way - as often enough shown as youngster by my now-departed ex-farming stock mum – things really were done differently once!) Did the broken leg stop it from carrying on and cornering the puss? No sir. 

When I spoke of pup sales driving this activity I only spoke of the broader dynamics involved, missbeeb.















 

Chisum, Here's where the major difference is....I and many people who have worked dog extensively don't believe the structure in today's showrings are "good anatomy"....and the dog is a working dog by nature and design.....You see to me if the equation is correct (good anatomy and working ability), then you will see"consistent" examples of it. So take the dogs that I mentioned....all were VA dogs, all were top working and producers of working as well as structural dogs. We all agree on the "greatness of these dogs" as representing what the breed should be, in both camps, by their accomplishments. Now fast forward to today......Could these dogs compete and produce dogs that could compete in working venues????? Of course they could! Could these dogs compete and produce dogs that could compete in the showring?????????Be truthful! Maybe this better clarifies what I am trying to say....Somewhere this train has veered way off the track and the results shows in the equation of beauty and working not being able to exist anymore. Now which of these two areas veered,the working or the show???? If the alltime greats would no longer place in either the working venue or the show venue than something is wrong because they are supposed to coexist "together". That's all I'm trying to say....If I owned Marko vom Cellerland, World Seiger of 1972, he would not be able to place even high V in today's Seiger show and he couldn't even win a "CLUB" show today in Germany. But people want to convince me that this new dog is superior structurally, but the test of structure, herding, working, Marko and his progeny would outperform 90% of time, to today's showlines. Something is not right and I don't think we do the breed justice moving in "THAT" direction away from the Marko, Mutz, Bernd, direction....JMO. If this is bashing then I don't know how to make observations based on reality.

Gustav, can you imagine what the current value would be for frozen semen for these "super dogs" Bernd, Marko, and these greats from the past?  Sad thing is that trhere are probably some greats like this around in folks kennels in Germany and Europe that don't get shown much because they can't win in the ultra competition of today in either profung or zuchtschau.  If folks decide to breed for this kind of quality they will not obtain ribons and placings unless the SV changes it decisons on which GSDs are best overall. 

Gustav - you hit on a very good point. These dogs were great because of what they were, the complete package.

Here is an interesting article I came across as I search for information on herding. like most things, it's become far too commercialised and money oriented ...

Enjoy http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/manfred-english/index.html