Why do they breed them like this? - Page 14

Karl Fuller describes the same thing in the GSD: some dogs herd by instinct alone and others by training. The GSD who herds by instinct can work alone. The GSD who herds because he's been trained to do so cannot work alone. The one who herds by instinct is more valuable to the shepherd and should be more valuable to the bloodline, whether he has a small fault like a slight overbite or not. 

I figure we’ve both probably had enough of this thread but in case you’re still reading, Gustav, I don’t dispute any of those well put points, but in lieu of disparate flavors within each group, think you’d agree that you can’t just tar them wholesale with the same broad brush. Some here will know Messler’s criticisms: back and hip/elbow problems, undue hind angulation and associated lack of stability, too much emphasis given to appearance and related detail, lack of genetic diversity (separately relevant to WLs also of course): too much type uniformity and health/vitality problems, undue softness etc. Easy to add problems of excess height and weight; over-stretched bodies and roached and sloping backs; steep upper arms and generally bad fronts; duller animals too easily stressed or hyper and lacking in the requisite hardness, spirit and stamina demanded by a multi-purpose working dog, etc, etc. 

As said, show-ring activity seems to have done everything bar advance the breed! Still, some breeders, including ones here, do strive in some small way for something better by including WLs in their programs. Whether it’s all too late and insignificant, well …

“Somewhere this train has veered way off the track and the results shows in the equation of beauty and working not being able to co-exist anymore.” What can I say, Gustav? – save that that train probably left the station years ago. By what I’ve read even the good captain struck problems on that count. Commercialization and exports - pup and stock sales and stud fees are what really underpin both this activity and its scale, combined with gullible consumerism. (Harmful trends, together with the export of inferior stock by the ton-load occurred during his time too.) Money in other words, which inevitably makes up its own rules. 

The whole status quo, including that of commercially-oriented kennels, show-ring activity etc and the SV and its worldwide purebred affiliates, and despite eternally touting or paying lip service to concerns over breed welfare (man’s best friend, don’t you know!) and the need to maintain working qualities etc, relies or revolves around it. With Wienerau brand’s popularity no doubt making its own unforeseen more recent contribution: when onto a ‘good’ product, stick to it - not exactly a new or unique situation!  

If our purebred clubs, including the SV, really gave a fig for breed welfare they’d impose harsh restrictions on line breeding and singular stud use tomorrow! As it stands they’re adding a whole new slant to ‘institutionalized animal cruelty’! How many members care … What sells rules, Gustav – what you or I want barely seems to matter!  

This is sad....I started out in German showlines but have now switched to the workingline. I dont like what most of the showline dogs have become. To me is looks like the are getting more americanized (if that is a word)...This is my showline male. He is a little over stretched in this picture but is not cow hocked or easty westy in the front like the pup pictured.

The answer to the question is very simple, it is what the judges are looking for/picking.  The Captian set this standard through the sieger show by picking the dogs that dysplayed the traits he wanted for the future generations.  He knew that human nature to win would follow his lead.   How to fix what you think is wrong, get judges that agree with your interpitation of the standard get involved with your organizations.   This is why WDA and USA call in German judges, in the hopes they will be objective and steer our breeders to the correct dog.  However, there is a limitation here, they have to pick a winner, perhaps the winner would not be so highly placed by another judge or in comparison to the World Sieger. 

Plus if we don't like what they are choosing, rebel, breed what you want and don't bother with the conformation issues.  Our decisions are making this dog.

I worked in the '80's for a lady that loved the breed, showed in the AKC ring and stopped breeding/showing when her idea of the GSD was opposed to that of AKC judges in the '70s.  She spent the rest of her life adopting unwanted dogs for use as sentry dogs that were abandoned. 

Jyl, I want to know more about your dog!! I know you are in Quebec, and my rescue came from Quebec, and your dog looks enough like him to be a brother! Here's his picture:

Sunsilver

I am actually not in Quebec. I live in California in the USA. I owned my showline male, Aiko's, sire who was my first GSD. Aiko, who is pictures above, is 5 years old. I have his BH and am working towards his SchH1. I will be going all the way to his SchH3. Here is his pedigree...

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/454230.html

Jyl, you posted a link once that went to a French-Canadian website, and I translated some of the stuff on that website, IIRC. That's why I thought you were from Quebec. Ah, well. So much for that! I am still hoping to find information that will lead me to my rescue's ancestors. I don't care about the papers, I just want to know what lines he came from! He's a wonderful, clear-headed, stable guy. I've rarely seen a dog that resembles him as strongly as your boy. The mask on the face is almost identical!

Ranger's headshot:

Since your boy is a mix of working lines, a bit of show lines, and some American dogs on his sire's side, it helps confirm my suspicions that my boy may be a mix of working lines and some American/Canadian bred dogs.

 A scientist’s view on inbreeding: -
 
“Inbreeding, here defined as inclusive of ‘incest’, line and back breeding, together with popular sire breeding and that aimed at producing elite ‘champions’, depletes a breed’s genetic heritage. 

It greatly furthers the risk of genetic defects and should therefore be deemed the kind of animal experiment only appropriate to scientific institutions for valid research purposes; certainly not as some justification toward producing a slightly better champion.

Although seen as a valuable tool in the initial establishment of a particular kind of canine, inbreeding looses its validity once a breed reaches a high degree of predictable uniformity and homogeneity, thence turning instead into a disastrous habit.

Legitimate breeding does not gamble with canine health, nor places the latter above any breed purity concerns. Overwhelming scientific and practical evidence conclusively proves that inbreeding amounts to abusive breeding and genetic mutilation. 

Dogs have the right to enjoy a life worth living, one with an adequate reserve of genetic diversity; and no less so than good care, feeding and freedom from abusive treatment

Breed clubs may well avow that breed health is their foremost concern, but this remains without credibility for as long as their code of ethics fail to prohibit inbreeding.” 


Wish you luck with that judges’ thing, Baldursmom.  


 

 SunSilver,

You're talking about me :))

Julie

Duh! July/Jly...can you blame me for getting confused? 

Anyway, Jly, I think he's a nice looking boy, and congratulations on your BH! :)

Chisum, can you give us the source of that quote, please? I'd like to save a copy of it.