The Early German Shepherd - Page 8

No and you're not going to piss me off... try away Christopher!  I thought that the author (not Videx) put it better than I could...

Yes, I have seen a few very hyper Shepherds, but I hear about more of them on this board. 

Sounds like you have a problem with us Brits... I don't know if it's reasonable to call David Payne a jackass... your posts reminded me slightly of some of his actually!

missbeeb i think your on to him.i thought that days ago. i believe its quite reasonable to call payne a jackass.

LOL wuzzup!

I’m not trying to piss you off; I’m trying to get to the bottom of this idea about “maniac” GSDs. I noticed that you are now saying; “very hyper” is that the same thing as “manic”?  How does this hyperactivity manifest?   

Christopher, I have the interests of the GSD at heart, as I suspect the majority of posters on here do.

Our breed is split by fashion and passion.  Too many wl people are too rigid, largely believing that all Shepherds must have this high prey drive, (manic, by some descriptions and a couple of sightings) in order to work.  They do not.  Sch is not the only "work" around; many people would rather avoid the protection / manwork... I'm one of them...it holds no appeal for me.  These wl dogs are often (not always) rather square, terrier fronted, with little hind angulation.

Some sl breeders produce dogs that could work, but their breeders / owners are not interested in working their dogs... that may not be the ideal, but it's their choice. 

Some sl breeders, produce over angulated, unsound specimens... incapable of doing any kind of work.

It would be wonderful,really wonderful, if we could work together!

So... that's the gist of what I was trying to say to wazzup...when you added your 10 cents.

Just for you, kitkat.

Inbreeding, defined as mating individuals related closer than population average, results in two main problems: a higher incidence and greater repetition of harmful recessive traits - and inbreeding depression. The more common GSD recessive traits at present include long coat, retinal atrophy and dwarfism. Inbreeding also heightens occurrence of polygenic traits like hip/elbow dysplasia, but to a lesser degree. ‘Depression’ harms general performing ability, overall lifetime health and survivability.

As for livestock more widely, inbreeding should not be taken beyond a coefficient of 6.25%. The individuals comprising any one breed are by definition of course all inter-related to some degree. This situation is overcome by initially settling on a non-inbred base population; one fixed on the assumption that linkages prior to that point have lost their importance. For example, the connection between a current individual and forebear eight generations back is a mere .4%.

The dog world seems unwilling to accept plain scientific facts. Scientists inbreed mice and the like to a very high degree but as soon as a line starts to die out from inbred weaknesses they’re readily able to cross with another. Inbreeding depression normally manifests itself as smaller size, less resistance to stress and disease, reduced fertility with fewer offspring, and shorter lives. Except for the smaller size, maybe, this must strike a chord with those who’ve observed the American GSD over the past four decades or so. Neither do breeders have the means to maintain a number of separate bloodlines as for the laboratory experimenters.

Concentrated stud use and line breeding comprise the most common forms of inbreeding. As well illustrated by the singular use made of a popular ‘Grand Victor’ or Sieger VAs to the exclusion of less well-placed animals. The chances of producing a slightly better champion may well marginally improve but only at the cost of largely hidden deleterious recessives; only to manifest at a later time in widespread problems, impossible to ignore and almost impossible to eliminate. Meanwhile, that essential genetic diversity or the superior genes locked up within the unused dogs are irretrievably lost.

Even for German breeders it’s now almost impossible to find animals not line-bred on Palme and Q-litter Arminius for instance. Problems such as Lasso’s offspring immune system deficiencies or the high levels of hip dysplasia in those from Zamb Wienerau, or even the small number of survey quality Tacko Wienerau descendents, are but the natural outcome of continued line breeding.

 



 

An ‘easier’ version just for you, missbeeb.

Ever more it’s thought that good structure and good character are somehow incompatible. And that the present ‘show’ dog lacks the temperament, training abilities and moderate form demanded by the working enthusiast. Other than for the contrary efforts of a few well-intentioned breeders, neither does existing system of working tests/titling offer major hope toward bridging this divide.

Will current trends produce ever more extreme types, both in anatomy and temperament, or is it yet somehow reversible? The Standard itself, in conjunction with clear objectives and canine science, may well supply the answer; as further exemplified by the results produced by a number of breeders during the 1960s. Many of these individuals managed to deliver animals of medium size and good pigment and solid character - and did so without sacrificing genetic variety.

The extent to which working dogs historically contributed to the welfare of the breed as a whole was in large part determined via successful Sieger Show placing. As well demonstrated by VAs like Alf (and thence Mutz), Nico Haus Beck, Bodo and Bernd Lierberg, Marko and Frei Gugge. Certain Quanto offspring, including Attaque Adelegg and Ali Katzenbuckel, also displayed superior working abilities. Whereas the results of well-known kennels like Busecker Schloss and Kirschental clearly validate how good working ability need not come at the expense of functional anatomy, nor fine looks.

Of course numerous other examples abound. No, the successful fusion of ‘show’ with working lines verily lies at the very heart of our breed’s development. What aficionado here hasn’t heard of VA1s Dick and Herzog Adeloga, Valet Busecker Schloss or the famed Axel Hainsterbach (sire of Zamb’s dam Ica Wienerau). Even one of the breed’s great foundation mother-lines, Wilma Kisselschlucht, and of similar heritage to Q-litter Arminius, is traceable to Bodo Lierberg and Valet Busecker Schloss. 

There is no reason why similar expert and informed selection should now not meet with similar success. Some of the more special contributors to our breed’s success must not be forgotten: names like Dr. Rummel, Herman Martin and Peter Messler readily spring to mind.















 

Most of the time it’s hard to know whether to laugh or cry, Christopher.
Someone only has to mention hind angulation, sloping backs or whatnot, and in a flash some idiot opens a new thread (I post: therefore I am!) parroting on about how dearly they love or hate undue hind angulation or what a fine slope their dog happens to have, or, where nothing else serves, rave forth about some food extrusion - inevitably to the exclusion of all else and as if nothing else really mattered or existed!

Or joyfully offer absurdities like: “There is nothing like a well bred, raised and trained GSD that will bring the fight to the man and try and destroy him.” No doubt the same characters are quick to rant of how Max aimed for a versatile working dog or about the proper objectives of Schutzhund! Can a sound dog work, Christopher? I doubt questions as those, or a multitude of others equally crucial, ever even cross some posters’ one-dimensional minds!

Personally I prefer to avoid the Videx Site, Christopher, but Mr. Payne a jackass? That I cannot grant! I’m sure he’s only got the breed’s betterment at heart. Why else would he so fervently urge others to undertake and pay for JRD testing so that they may make informed breeding decisions. Problems as these certainly don’t deserve sweeping under the carpet. Only the other day I happened to visit Dogenes revamped website, hugely impressed by how presented JRD information never even for a moment smacked of shonky salesmanship. (The two for one offer entices but personally I can’t wait for the specials commencing on the twenty-fourth this month.) And I well understand why Mr. Payne continues to throttle all relevant discussion. Why allow facts to undermine breed welfare?

Why don’t we have a shot of Liz or yourself emerging from that lake, missbeeb?  



 

Quote:Personally I prefer to avoid the Videx Site, Christopher, but Mr. Payne a jackass?

Payne in the jackass?

 Well-meaning, modest and retiring, but yet one of GSDs all-time great, albeit ever so slightly misguided stalwarts?

Jealousy and envy are a curse, Christopher!