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by Held on 14 January 2009 - 18:01
Every time i hear this kind of question i have to laugh.it is unbelivable how so many people misunderstand titles.shutzhund titles mean nothing more than the fact that the handler and has the ability to follow a extremely boring training pattern without killing each other from boredom.shutzhund title never did never will tell you the whole story about any dog it only tells you the can do shutzhund good or bad in most cases really bad because trainers and handlers do a shit job.Dogs are always picked to enter different trainig enviornments strictly based on their inherent abilities,drives.and temperment and nothing else.good militry and police dogs are not selected because dog itself or it's parents ahve titlies and should never be picked this way at least the good one.and right there is enough indication for even people with half a brain to know how important shutzhund title are not.dogs should never be bread because they have titles.that is the reason why there are problems with this breed.people who know what a good dog is do not know this cause dog has titles.there are totaly different reasons.that is all i am gonna say for now.have a nice one.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 14 January 2009 - 18:01
As far as GSD's passing to Mondio or French ring 3, I do not see it. Just not going to happen really. It is like that once in a while off breed that is one in a million and can do the sport.
THis is not something I like to see. I would love to train a GSD in Mondio, but really ?? How many pups would I have to go through to get where I wanted to go ?? Not very realistic.
Most GSD's cannot get to Sch 3, and that is comprable to a ring 1. How do we get people to see that whatever it is they are doing breeding, it is not working out ????
by 4pack on 14 January 2009 - 19:01
Jeff I'd be happy with a 1. I like seeind GSD's being worked in other sports regardless. I'd be more impressed with a dog being titled to PSA1, Sch1, FR1, Mondio 1 than a Sch3 any day. It shows he's versatile and can handle those jumps.
by Two Moons on 14 January 2009 - 19:01
Ethics, ethical, lofty words.
Titles have nothing to do with ethics.
Ethical breeding involves a lot more than simply titles. Besides, what we have today doesn't really have anything to do with how or why the breed was developed in the first place.
These tests and the titles acheived are so limited in regards to what a real GSD should be about. Its as bad as the standardized tests we inflict on our children.
I grant you its all you have to go on right now but whos fault is that. I find this lacking and in need of revision.
I want to know what I'm breeding, that takes knowing your animal. Reading titles tells you little about what your really looking at. Its easy to throw together titles without ever really knowing what the total dog is really worth.
It takes years to know about health issues, but most dogs are breed as soon as possible aren't they.
And a dog with all the titles can still be a dog you wouldn't want to live with everyday in the real world.
Lofty words are only words, how many people really live by them.
I'll breed what I want , ethics has to do with how I deal with my dogs and the people I meet.
Ethics is in the eye of the beholder, not to be decided by onlookers who think they are better than the rest of us.
To each his own.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 14 January 2009 - 20:01
Quote: These tests and the titles acheived are so limited in regards to what a real GSD should be about.
OK, so do you title your dogs in Sch?
There definately is more to breeding than just the title, it is the dogs capacity to learn the job and enjoy itself. I do not know many dogs that are titled that are such a huge pain to live with, and I deal with Mals. I have not known a GSD that was a pain to live with.
Not sure what you are looking at, being that my experience is different.
Breeding right away is a show thing. It is their income, their way of paying for the travel and show expenses.
by Baldursmom on 15 January 2009 - 00:01
Her hips are rated a1 at 16 month. She is EPI free and thyroid tests are normal. Her father is VA Ham von der Urbecke, know to produce great sch females. I am extremely proud of this dog and her bitework. She has never shown any agression towards anyone including chlidren, unless you count the landscaper she treed last summer when he entered the back yard unescorted.
The poster was informed at the time of purchase that the pup was out of an untitied female and was thus priced less than a pup out of v rated titled stock. He had initially looked at a long coat pup out of another litter and when he found out Mittelwest would not help him to find a stud dog for a long coat he turned to the next tier of pricing, pups out of an untited bitch and was refered to my litter.
He wanted to breed at least one litter from his pup to have a legacy from his dog. I told him that that was possible as she would not be sold as limited registration since Kasha would be titled soon. He purchased Halo and seemed happy at the time. He then did the research into the SV rules of breeding a registerable litter and has consitantly accused me and the stud owner of being unethical. Although I do not feel this was unethical, I offered to help him upgrade to another pup whose mother had been titled and koer'ed at the time of the pups birth and he declined. I honestly think he has discoved the expense required to do this the SV way in the USA has the same issues I had fiancially and experience wise and does not want to do it wrong. God bless him for wanting to follow the SV rules to a T. If I could afford it, I would. I can't afford to title a dog then hope she is fertile for what I want to do and I beleive there are others out there that have similar views. Misrespresenting the litter as out of a titled dog when the dog is not titled to me would be unethical.
There is nothing to my knowledge stopping him form titling the dog and continuing his new dream of a show dog. She may not be able to go VA, but we all know how hard, few and far between that is.
I realize that SV rules were not followed to the T, but this bitch was healthy and not mis-represented. Three vets have told me that they beleive she is a credit to the breed due to her temperment compared to others they see.
It is expensive to purchase a pup, train and show him or her. Both USA and WDA have their fees and membership requirments.
I would still help him exchange her and take that pup back if he feels he was "ripped off". That pup was a fire cracker, climbed over a baby gate at 7 weeks old and ruled the litter. If I had not needed to sell the entire litter, she would have been held back.
by Rho on 15 January 2009 - 00:01
by bgstout on 15 January 2009 - 00:01
Thanks for posting, that is exactly how german shepherd breeding should be. Only a handfull of US breeders follow those guidelines.
by Oskar1 on 15 January 2009 - 08:01
yup, many of you are right, even if a dog is titelt, it still does not mean it should be bred. But by making peopel to title a dog before it is used for breeding, you will ensure that peopel at least do something with their dog, and even better you now KNOW, that dog & handler are capable of working together as a team. Plus, I think this is a good thing, the animal becomes "more worth" to his handler, meaning simply he will not as easy dispose of this dog. The dog will more likely not end up in a shelter or stray. Each single breeding should be thought out, trying to bring certain traits out, or to eliminate a certain trait. That's imo what breeding should be about. And we all know that, we can test for ellbows,hips, we can test this and that, still does not mean your pups will not devellop something, but we definately turn the odds in our favor.
And yes again, it is much harder to mantain a training shedule, SV style, in the US, because of various things: Long distances, fewer trails judged by SV certified judges .........
But this could be changed, if you the members, get AKC or USA to install rules for breeding & training. I know, I know you will say that that is impossible, well I think it would be possible if all would work together towards a certain goal. It is allready like this in many parts, and many breeders in the US follow the SV regulations. Again, I like to point out, that I do not believe everything in the SV to be the all cure, but it is certainly a good base to build on.
There will be always the ones that say, I can do whatever I wish to do, well fine with me. Just dont do it, when you are a member of a club with certain rules. This would be like beeing in a football team, but wanting to play basketball in pratice !When you (thats how it is in Germany) register your kennel name with the SV, you sign, aknowledge and state, that you will stick with the rules & regulations set out by the SV. As simple as that, if you cant or are not willing to obey that, for what ever reason, get out, dont be a part of that. Nobody forces you to do so. What I personally always find amusing is, that most of the peopel complaining are very keen to have these "Pink SV" papers, so even in their thinking they must stand for something desireble.
Anyways, I do believe that you guys have good stock to breed with, utilize it and mantain it.
Best Regards Ulli
by Jeff Oehlsen on 15 January 2009 - 10:01
Quote: shutzhund titles mean nothing more than the fact that the handler and has the ability to follow a extremely boring training pattern without killing each other from boredom.shutzhund title never did never will tell you the whole story about any dog it only tells you the can do shutzhund good or bad in most cases really bad because trainers and handlers do a shit job
I am curious as to wether or not you have titled a dog to a 3 ???
Quote: I'll breed what I want
What do you do with your dogs ???
Quote: I know, I know you will say that that is impossible, well I think it would be possible if all would work together towards a certain goal
People here in the states get too wrapped up in the dogs. They live vicariously through them, and really are damn near worthless as people, way too often. It will never happen here, as these people are ego driven, not what is good for the breed. They will argue endlessly saying "who's to say who's to say" as if there never was a Von Stephanitz telling us what it was that he wanted.
Goofballs. Look at how they bicker here on this forum like children. Boo Hoo, I got a dog from an untitled bitch. Mals come from untitled bitches all the time and they are rocking the GSD world. Besides, who has time to mess with a bitch ??? THey have another job to do that is more important. Train them a bit, and then see what they produce. If they produce shit, then spay em and place em.
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