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by Wildmoor on 01 February 2009 - 14:02
I do not cite sources without permission of the author as stated I am waiting for permission.
I thought you was leaving no doubt you will lurk for many months to come trying to gain information! You are very selective with what questions you answer arent you?
For others this is part of the KC statement prior to the screening of her production:
"Sadly we soon discovered that the members of the production company seemed to have pre-conceived and extremely biased views on the subject. Alarm bells rang when we found out the biased nature of many of the questions being posed both to ourselves and to others. The vast majority covered negative issues – few if any were about the positive aspects of purebred dogs" R Irving 8/8/08
I thought you was leaving no doubt you will lurk for many months to come trying to gain information! You are very selective with what questions you answer arent you?
For others this is part of the KC statement prior to the screening of her production:
"Sadly we soon discovered that the members of the production company seemed to have pre-conceived and extremely biased views on the subject. Alarm bells rang when we found out the biased nature of many of the questions being posed both to ourselves and to others. The vast majority covered negative issues – few if any were about the positive aspects of purebred dogs" R Irving 8/8/08
by Jemima Harrison on 01 February 2009 - 14:02
And to Liz... I said I would not reply to aggressive and rude emails. If you haven't been rude or aggressive then the comment doesn't apply to you and there's no need to be 'speechless".
I HAVE answered your questions - including why we uploaded the extra GSD footage. I AM active on other dog boards and I have said that I will upload footage of other breeds as soon as our hard drives are back from the vets (hopefully by end of this coming week).
As for 'balance', the point is that dogs like the ones in the clip are not just being exhbited but WINNING in the showring, My motive for showing it, therefore, is to provoke debate and, ultimately, change.
Wildmoor did indeed give me some outline answers to my questions, albeit with none of the references that were being demanded of me. I still have no answer as to why the GSD breed clubs did not particpate in the KC/AHT health survey, and I have yet to be pointed to any online GSD health resources (although, independently, have found some good information on Videx's site which is helpful). It is, as I think you stated earlier, the case that other breed clubs also don't give out much health info on their website - but certainly some do and they set an excellent example.
Please be assured that we do indeed research everything thoroughly, using reputable sources (as I have detailed elsewhere). We showed the GSD footage we had, for instance, to several vets and veterinary researchers, including orthopaedic and neuro specialists.
And that, really, is my last comment. As said before, I am happy to answer questions and/or continue the debate privately.
Jemima
I HAVE answered your questions - including why we uploaded the extra GSD footage. I AM active on other dog boards and I have said that I will upload footage of other breeds as soon as our hard drives are back from the vets (hopefully by end of this coming week).
As for 'balance', the point is that dogs like the ones in the clip are not just being exhbited but WINNING in the showring, My motive for showing it, therefore, is to provoke debate and, ultimately, change.
Wildmoor did indeed give me some outline answers to my questions, albeit with none of the references that were being demanded of me. I still have no answer as to why the GSD breed clubs did not particpate in the KC/AHT health survey, and I have yet to be pointed to any online GSD health resources (although, independently, have found some good information on Videx's site which is helpful). It is, as I think you stated earlier, the case that other breed clubs also don't give out much health info on their website - but certainly some do and they set an excellent example.
Please be assured that we do indeed research everything thoroughly, using reputable sources (as I have detailed elsewhere). We showed the GSD footage we had, for instance, to several vets and veterinary researchers, including orthopaedic and neuro specialists.
And that, really, is my last comment. As said before, I am happy to answer questions and/or continue the debate privately.
Jemima
by Sue B on 01 February 2009 - 15:02
pacosbear and missbeeb,
Thank you both for ALL your input here it has been invaluable. I have especially singled out the both of you because what I know of you is only from reading the messages you leave on this board , from which I perceive neither of you are breeders nor exhibitors (at least not avid ones though it sounds like pacosbear has dipped her feet slightly <bg>).
I was lucky to have joined this breed at, what I now term as, the start of it's UK 'Hay Day'. I believe only a few years after the campaign to have it's rightful name of German Shepherd restored had been successfully achieved in 1974 (I am sure others will rightly so correct me if I am wrong with the date). At that time more imports were coming into the UK than at any other time in its history to date, the majority of breed clubs had training days, entries were increasing all the time with well over the hundred at an Open show, indeed attendances at our AGM's often led to standing room only. Malcolm Willis had just recently spent time over in Germany viewing Hip plates for comparison with our own recently introduced scheme, at that time the Tattoo I.D scheme was'nt even a twinkle in the GSDL's eye as was the conception of The Two Day Show but the show to beat all shows was only 4 years away (1984) and Tattoo scheme only some 7yrs away from fruition (either 1986 or 7 If memory serves). Now constantly reminding myself of just how much I am beginning to sound like my mother when I hear myself thinking "Those were the days" but truly for a span lasting almost 2 decades they almost certainly were.
With the introduction of the Hip Scheme, I.D. and still further schemes to come including those introduced by the Clubs via the Breed Council, the breed as a whole continued to improve - the vast reduction of HD cases and poor Characters were pheonominal and most relevant to the disscussion here now, so was soundness. Going were the soft, overlong, dipped backs, overangulated 2nd thighs and weak hocks and in were strong, well muscled backs, hocks, thighs and less angulated hindquarters.
Although nothing in the garden has ever been (nor will it ever be) completely rosy, we are afterall dealing with livestock, not a bestoke piece of furniture, overall the breed has continued to improve. Although it must be said that over the years, in our endeavours to improve some aspects of conformation we have introduced others we would rather not have had, such is the way of breeding but it is only upon production of such faults do we become more aware of them and the careful breeder always keeps a constant vigil on the imposing threat of any increasing faults and takes steps to avoid them in the future in order to reduce their prepotent effect to the breed as a whole.
I have never been able to finger the exact reason behind the start of the decline, though in my estimation the start of it was in the mid to late nineties, slowly at first, then more rapidly picking up speed at the turn of the millenium. IMO it is not the breed itself as such that has declined but the number of and the amount of knowledge and experience left in it's present custodions. Blame the ever increasing cost of keeping dogs, the food, vet bills and then for the hobby enthusiast / exhibitor the added cost of Petrol and handling fee's, blame this ever increasing lack of respect society and where in the past the five minute wonders came and went they now stick around as the Immediately Know it All in a Second and in an instance these become breeders using sires on their females not from carefully mapped out knowledge but by listening to the ones that crow the loudest, have the biggest adverts or simply promise to promote them be it by connections or handling. Yes my friend the
Thank you both for ALL your input here it has been invaluable. I have especially singled out the both of you because what I know of you is only from reading the messages you leave on this board , from which I perceive neither of you are breeders nor exhibitors (at least not avid ones though it sounds like pacosbear has dipped her feet slightly <bg>).
I was lucky to have joined this breed at, what I now term as, the start of it's UK 'Hay Day'. I believe only a few years after the campaign to have it's rightful name of German Shepherd restored had been successfully achieved in 1974 (I am sure others will rightly so correct me if I am wrong with the date). At that time more imports were coming into the UK than at any other time in its history to date, the majority of breed clubs had training days, entries were increasing all the time with well over the hundred at an Open show, indeed attendances at our AGM's often led to standing room only. Malcolm Willis had just recently spent time over in Germany viewing Hip plates for comparison with our own recently introduced scheme, at that time the Tattoo I.D scheme was'nt even a twinkle in the GSDL's eye as was the conception of The Two Day Show but the show to beat all shows was only 4 years away (1984) and Tattoo scheme only some 7yrs away from fruition (either 1986 or 7 If memory serves). Now constantly reminding myself of just how much I am beginning to sound like my mother when I hear myself thinking "Those were the days" but truly for a span lasting almost 2 decades they almost certainly were.
With the introduction of the Hip Scheme, I.D. and still further schemes to come including those introduced by the Clubs via the Breed Council, the breed as a whole continued to improve - the vast reduction of HD cases and poor Characters were pheonominal and most relevant to the disscussion here now, so was soundness. Going were the soft, overlong, dipped backs, overangulated 2nd thighs and weak hocks and in were strong, well muscled backs, hocks, thighs and less angulated hindquarters.
Although nothing in the garden has ever been (nor will it ever be) completely rosy, we are afterall dealing with livestock, not a bestoke piece of furniture, overall the breed has continued to improve. Although it must be said that over the years, in our endeavours to improve some aspects of conformation we have introduced others we would rather not have had, such is the way of breeding but it is only upon production of such faults do we become more aware of them and the careful breeder always keeps a constant vigil on the imposing threat of any increasing faults and takes steps to avoid them in the future in order to reduce their prepotent effect to the breed as a whole.
I have never been able to finger the exact reason behind the start of the decline, though in my estimation the start of it was in the mid to late nineties, slowly at first, then more rapidly picking up speed at the turn of the millenium. IMO it is not the breed itself as such that has declined but the number of and the amount of knowledge and experience left in it's present custodions. Blame the ever increasing cost of keeping dogs, the food, vet bills and then for the hobby enthusiast / exhibitor the added cost of Petrol and handling fee's, blame this ever increasing lack of respect society and where in the past the five minute wonders came and went they now stick around as the Immediately Know it All in a Second and in an instance these become breeders using sires on their females not from carefully mapped out knowledge but by listening to the ones that crow the loudest, have the biggest adverts or simply promise to promote them be it by connections or handling. Yes my friend the
by Sue B on 01 February 2009 - 15:02
Continued
Yes my friend the world of dogs is corrupt, but doubtless no more so in the GSD world than any other breed, its perhaps just the decline in the numbers of respected stalwarts that it has lately become more noticeable to me in our breed. For when those of little knowledge outnumber those with greater knowledge we will inevitably start to encounter more problems.
Now that Jemima PDE has left us I will admit unsoundness is becoming an increasing problem which most certainly needs to be addressed, but what I find absolutely abhorrent is the unbalanced , biased way her bigotted , sensationalist programme set about attacking our breed, its owners and breeders without any reservation. Using such a powerful media as the BBC whilst allowing us no similar platform of redress, the total lack of decency and fair play exhibited by this production company fills me with despair and taking the nationality of these programme makers into consideration within the world of German Shepherd dogs it makes me ashamed to be British. YES, we have our problems in the breed, YES unsoundness is becoming one of them, but to produce an indescriminate all out attack on the entire breed and attempt to tar all its breeders with the programme makers own well Tainted Brush is NO WAY to try to get people ON SIDE for future co-operation or find them agreeable to work collectively together to improve what needs improving. If you want to make friends and allies it is not advisable to start BEATING THEM WITH A BIG STICK FIRST.
I will admit Jemima is right on one thing about me, I was never going to be that willing to listen to anything else she said but then coming from a background where the truth, fair play and democracy was such an important part of my cultural upbringin I find it difficult to give credance to those who have otherwise only shown the opposite in their makeup. The saying "Once bitten, twice shy" comes immediately to mind. Hence as previously said, when you Attack me and mine I defend, more accurately of course it should have read, when you Attack Me and Mine I immediately come out FIGHTING!! And I make no apologies for that.
However, now is the time for us all to make a difference and hopefully without further hindrance from Jemima PDE, though I am sure the jury's still out on that one, at least I for one will be hesitant to hold my breath.
Best Regards to all
Sue B
Yes my friend the world of dogs is corrupt, but doubtless no more so in the GSD world than any other breed, its perhaps just the decline in the numbers of respected stalwarts that it has lately become more noticeable to me in our breed. For when those of little knowledge outnumber those with greater knowledge we will inevitably start to encounter more problems.
Now that Jemima PDE has left us I will admit unsoundness is becoming an increasing problem which most certainly needs to be addressed, but what I find absolutely abhorrent is the unbalanced , biased way her bigotted , sensationalist programme set about attacking our breed, its owners and breeders without any reservation. Using such a powerful media as the BBC whilst allowing us no similar platform of redress, the total lack of decency and fair play exhibited by this production company fills me with despair and taking the nationality of these programme makers into consideration within the world of German Shepherd dogs it makes me ashamed to be British. YES, we have our problems in the breed, YES unsoundness is becoming one of them, but to produce an indescriminate all out attack on the entire breed and attempt to tar all its breeders with the programme makers own well Tainted Brush is NO WAY to try to get people ON SIDE for future co-operation or find them agreeable to work collectively together to improve what needs improving. If you want to make friends and allies it is not advisable to start BEATING THEM WITH A BIG STICK FIRST.
I will admit Jemima is right on one thing about me, I was never going to be that willing to listen to anything else she said but then coming from a background where the truth, fair play and democracy was such an important part of my cultural upbringin I find it difficult to give credance to those who have otherwise only shown the opposite in their makeup. The saying "Once bitten, twice shy" comes immediately to mind. Hence as previously said, when you Attack me and mine I defend, more accurately of course it should have read, when you Attack Me and Mine I immediately come out FIGHTING!! And I make no apologies for that.
However, now is the time for us all to make a difference and hopefully without further hindrance from Jemima PDE, though I am sure the jury's still out on that one, at least I for one will be hesitant to hold my breath.
Best Regards to all
Sue B
by pacosbear on 01 February 2009 - 15:02
Jemima
I look forward to your further extended footage of other breeds and will monitor your you tube site with interest, I am sorry as my internet search did not find you on other breeds message boards, hence my comment - maybe you could privately message those boards as I would be interested to see the responses from other breeds/breeders to get a 'complete' picture?
"As for 'balance', the point is that dogs like the ones in the clip are not just being exhbited but WINNING in the showring, " again I ask how are these specimens unhealthly ?
"My motive for showing it, therefore, is to provoke debate and, ultimately, change. " Stands up and applauds, which is what we ( the GSD folks who are on here) have asked you to help us with within our breed - is it not?
"Please be assured that we do indeed research everything thoroughly, using reputable sources (as I have detailed elsewhere). We showed the GSD footage we had, for instance, to several vets and veterinary researchers, including orthopaedic and neuro specialists. " BRILLIANT - are we as members of the public ( or heaven forbidden responsible breeders of gsds) allowed to know the results of your vets investigations into the footage?? As an owner of a gsd I am extremely interested in the 'experts' opinions - scientifically backed up of course- on the gsd. I am sure that many breeders on here would be very interested in their findings..... maybe you could post the findings publically on you tube?. - It certainly would help give a balanced perspective wouldn't it?
I look forward to your response, either publically on this forum or privately on the PM system or if you would like my private email then please advise and I would be glad to give it.
Many Thanks in advance
Liz
I look forward to your further extended footage of other breeds and will monitor your you tube site with interest, I am sorry as my internet search did not find you on other breeds message boards, hence my comment - maybe you could privately message those boards as I would be interested to see the responses from other breeds/breeders to get a 'complete' picture?
"As for 'balance', the point is that dogs like the ones in the clip are not just being exhbited but WINNING in the showring, " again I ask how are these specimens unhealthly ?
"My motive for showing it, therefore, is to provoke debate and, ultimately, change. " Stands up and applauds, which is what we ( the GSD folks who are on here) have asked you to help us with within our breed - is it not?
"Please be assured that we do indeed research everything thoroughly, using reputable sources (as I have detailed elsewhere). We showed the GSD footage we had, for instance, to several vets and veterinary researchers, including orthopaedic and neuro specialists. " BRILLIANT - are we as members of the public ( or heaven forbidden responsible breeders of gsds) allowed to know the results of your vets investigations into the footage?? As an owner of a gsd I am extremely interested in the 'experts' opinions - scientifically backed up of course- on the gsd. I am sure that many breeders on here would be very interested in their findings..... maybe you could post the findings publically on you tube?. - It certainly would help give a balanced perspective wouldn't it?
I look forward to your response, either publically on this forum or privately on the PM system or if you would like my private email then please advise and I would be glad to give it.
Many Thanks in advance
Liz
by Sue B on 01 February 2009 - 15:02
Pacosbear (Liz),
Clearly Jemima has her own interpretation of rude and aggressive posts that leave the majority of us somewhat perplexed at precisely where she does draw the line on this, but then again considering her programme should we be surprised at this? I'm certainly not but I do believe her rude and aggressive ethics begin at the questions she is simply unable to answere that would show her in that favourable light she would otherwise prefer everyone to believe shines down on her.
In other words, she cannot give the answeres required to refute my suggested allegations regarding the biased, unbalanced reporting shown by her programme.
Regards
Sue B
Clearly Jemima has her own interpretation of rude and aggressive posts that leave the majority of us somewhat perplexed at precisely where she does draw the line on this, but then again considering her programme should we be surprised at this? I'm certainly not but I do believe her rude and aggressive ethics begin at the questions she is simply unable to answere that would show her in that favourable light she would otherwise prefer everyone to believe shines down on her.
In other words, she cannot give the answeres required to refute my suggested allegations regarding the biased, unbalanced reporting shown by her programme.
Regards
Sue B
by Gustav on 01 February 2009 - 17:02
Missbeeb, Clearly you see the futility of knowledgable people attempting to work together on this problem. I have privately given you clear concise reasons for the current status of the breed in some quarters. Do you honestly think that information will be well received. I have also posted some of those things from time to time and people never want to address the issues they want to impose their remedies and HOLD on to practices that make their remedies null and void for the most part. That's why posters who have knowledge go into the woodwork or privately like I have done with you. If what I have expressed to you is not sound in terms of the breed today you can publicly say Gustav your posts don't make sense or aren't in line with the breed as it is today. I and many others don't need an admission of unsoundness in some quarters of the breed. And it would stand to reason that breeders that consistently have mastered the soundness issue should be listened to to solve the problem. But it never ceases to amaze me how people who have lost their way and either by action or admission don't know why, can be so arbitrary and negative towards others trying to help them or who do not have that particular problem. Its insane!!! Was it Shakespheare(sp) that coined the phrase"Thou protests too much", I have objectively listened to both sidesof this thread, Jemima has a clue as too source of problems in breed in UK, others were so intent on interorogating her and assessing her motive that they never LISTENED to what she had to say. So what that it wasn't balanced...when I go to the doctor to get something fixed I don't need him telling me about my fine aspects. I want him to give me information and possibly solution as to the problem at hand. Well this post was about what was exhibited and may be a problem in UK. There should have been intelligent discourse on this subject matter to assess the prevalence of the matter. Not attacks, defensiveness, pack mentality of denial, diversionary dialogue about the balance or good of the breed....NO this was not what the OP was about. Start another thread if you want to talk about the good!1 Bottom line is who really suffers in this type of exchange, NOBODY but the obstinate ones who have the problem that the rest of us see, but refuse to entertain solutions unless they allow them to continue to do what they have been doing to get there in the first place...Again, its insane!! I don't expect this posts to sit well with some of you, but I have found in life that the majority of people will recognize concise clear explanations supported by fact and example. I have established that respect on this board in the past so I don't care if you say whatever about me...in the end truth is the light and so let it shine.
by Sue B on 01 February 2009 - 18:02
Gustav,
I have absolutely no problem with what you have said above, indeed you speak much sense and whereas I have always in the past been only too willing to listen to anyone with knowledge and possible solutions to problems for as long as they have been prepared to partake of this knowledge, I will not however avail myself to sensationalism for the sake of it or even worse for the sake of profit in someone making a living at the expence of the good name of others and in order to further explain why I for one at least, refuse to co-operate with JH.PDE I will repeat what was incapulated within two paragraphs I wrote above.
"Now that Jemima PDE has left us I will admit unsoundness is becoming an increasing problem which most certainly needs to be addressed, but what I find absolutely abhorrent is the unbalanced , biased way her bigotted , sensationalist programme set about attacking our breed, its owners and breeders without any reservation. Using such a powerful media as the BBC whilst allowing us no similar platform of redress, the total lack of decency and fair play exhibited by this production company fills me with despair and taking the nationality of these programme makers into consideration within the world of German Shepherd dogs it makes me ashamed to be British. YES, we have our problems in the breed, YES unsoundness is becoming one of them, but to produce an indescriminate all out attack on the entire breed and attempt to tar all its breeders with the programme makers own well Tainted Brush is NO WAY to try to get people ON SIDE for future co-operation or find them agreeable to work collectively together to improve what needs improving. If you want to make friends and allies it is not advisable to start BEATING THEM WITH A BIG STICK FIRST.
Coming from a background where the truth, fair play and democracy was such an important part of my cultural upbringing I still find it difficult to give credance to those who have otherwise only shown the opposite in their makeup. The saying "Once bitten, twice shy" comes immediately to mind. Hence as previously said, when you Attack me and mine I defend, more accurately of course it should have read, when you Attack Me and Mine I immediately come out FIGHTING!! And I make no apologies for that. "
On the other hand any information you are prepared to offer Gustav will be gratefully recieved, studied and where appropriate applied.
Best Regards
Sue b
I have absolutely no problem with what you have said above, indeed you speak much sense and whereas I have always in the past been only too willing to listen to anyone with knowledge and possible solutions to problems for as long as they have been prepared to partake of this knowledge, I will not however avail myself to sensationalism for the sake of it or even worse for the sake of profit in someone making a living at the expence of the good name of others and in order to further explain why I for one at least, refuse to co-operate with JH.PDE I will repeat what was incapulated within two paragraphs I wrote above.
"Now that Jemima PDE has left us I will admit unsoundness is becoming an increasing problem which most certainly needs to be addressed, but what I find absolutely abhorrent is the unbalanced , biased way her bigotted , sensationalist programme set about attacking our breed, its owners and breeders without any reservation. Using such a powerful media as the BBC whilst allowing us no similar platform of redress, the total lack of decency and fair play exhibited by this production company fills me with despair and taking the nationality of these programme makers into consideration within the world of German Shepherd dogs it makes me ashamed to be British. YES, we have our problems in the breed, YES unsoundness is becoming one of them, but to produce an indescriminate all out attack on the entire breed and attempt to tar all its breeders with the programme makers own well Tainted Brush is NO WAY to try to get people ON SIDE for future co-operation or find them agreeable to work collectively together to improve what needs improving. If you want to make friends and allies it is not advisable to start BEATING THEM WITH A BIG STICK FIRST.
Coming from a background where the truth, fair play and democracy was such an important part of my cultural upbringing I still find it difficult to give credance to those who have otherwise only shown the opposite in their makeup. The saying "Once bitten, twice shy" comes immediately to mind. Hence as previously said, when you Attack me and mine I defend, more accurately of course it should have read, when you Attack Me and Mine I immediately come out FIGHTING!! And I make no apologies for that. "
On the other hand any information you are prepared to offer Gustav will be gratefully recieved, studied and where appropriate applied.
Best Regards
Sue b
by pacosbear on 01 February 2009 - 18:02
gustav I am completely confused could you explain in words of one syllable for me please what you mean in your post to missbeeb. are you saying that the release of the extended footage of the gsd is based on fact, or that Jemima is wanting to work with us and has facts and examples of the genetic problems within the breeds and the solutions??? Jemima brought to the fore and into the public domain the 'problems' with pedigree dog breeding, she has made the KC pay lip service to doing something about it and for that she is to be commmended, from there on I am lost.............
I asked your opinions in an earlier post as I am no expert and I did learn from you and agree esp with regards hips etc How are you contributing to solving the problems within our breed, that Jemima has highlighted? Sorry I don't know you personally and this question is asked as I do not know how to go about correcting the problems, I don't have all the information and from what I understand of your posts you have in someway a 'solution' ?
Please forgive my ignorance and at least attempt to educate - I'm listening.......
Thanks in advance
Liz
I asked your opinions in an earlier post as I am no expert and I did learn from you and agree esp with regards hips etc How are you contributing to solving the problems within our breed, that Jemima has highlighted? Sorry I don't know you personally and this question is asked as I do not know how to go about correcting the problems, I don't have all the information and from what I understand of your posts you have in someway a 'solution' ?
Please forgive my ignorance and at least attempt to educate - I'm listening.......
Thanks in advance
Liz
by missbeeb on 01 February 2009 - 18:02
Don't think that it's futile, Gustav... it certainly isn't, people get heated because they're totally frustrated at the injustice.
Jemima may as well be a reporter for "News of the World". She has admitted elsewhere that there was much positive input gained for PDE but it didn't suit their purposes to use it!
Kind of like us knowing what to do to repair our genetic bottle neck, but ignoring it! LOL
I think (jmo) Jemima is more of a Grim Reaper than a messenger... I'd shoot her!
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