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by Christopher Smith on 10 March 2009 - 17:03
Another overly used and badly misused--if a little is good, a lot is much better--pain source training tool that produces redirected aggression is the shock collar
I have seen far more redirected aggression with a slip or prong collar than I have with the e-collar.
or what is now euphemistically referred to as the e-collar. And why not, the e-prefix has become the buzz letter in selling.
What are you on about? E—collar is just short for electric collar. I bought my first one 1981 and it was called an electronic collar then too. That’s long before the E buzz term. The term shock collar is just a pejorative term used by people that don’t like the e-collar.
At subliminal levels, repeated shocks summate and though it might take 10 or more, sooner or later it hurts.
by Christopher Smith on 10 March 2009 - 18:03
The collar cannot be used at “subliminal levels”. And there is no cumulative effect of the e-collar. If left at the same level the collar will give the same stimulation level every time. The dog’s reaction to the collar can change with learning and the collar should be adjusted to compensate.
A few milliseconds off and it is just a painful stimulus with an undefined cause that the dog can't associate with anything specific and so "blames" whomever or whatever is near at the time.
A millisecond is one thousandth of a second. A few is three. There is no way that the human eye can react to what the dog does and the collar can do what it does it that little time. So within your parameters it would be imposable to train a dog with an e-collar. I know you were just being bombastic to make a point that you can’t make with the facts but I just wanted to point out what you are trying to do to the rest of the readers here.
So one shock too many or too often, and in some dogs just one shock is one too many, or if the timing is off or if the dog gets zapped by accident, saying "Oops, sorry there old buddy" just won't erase it. The collar is not really an ideal pill for all ills.
Can’t the same thing be said for all types of compulsion?
i cannot help but see that many want to use the ecollar because it appears to be an "easy solution" with dramatic results and i think this is wrong and dangerous thinking.
by Christopher Smith on 10 March 2009 - 18:03
On one hand you say that it is an “easy solution” but on the other hand you say that it’s some incredibly tricky tool to use. Do you think that people that use the e-collar are so stupid that they think that using such a hard tool to master is the easy way to go? How does that work, the hard tool is the easy way? That make no sense at all.
by OGBS on 10 March 2009 - 18:03
OGBS: If you walk up to him and pet him you will be very surprised by how lean he is.
Louise: Will you be able to walk up and "pet him"? He was growling at everyone (people/dogs) that came close to him at the 2008 USA Sieger Show in San Jose.
From your above statement in a previous post one would think that this was first-hand, personal knowledge. If you had written that a "friend told you this" one wouldn't misunderstand your statement.
As far as your dog's titles and when they got them congratulations!!!
What does that have to do with advocating putting an e-collar on a 3.5 month old puppy???
Oh wait, I forgot that all dogs are just dying to be adorned with titles and as quickly as possible.
What ever happened to enjoying your dogs??? And here's the real important part YOUR DOG ENJOYING YOU!!!!
by justcurious on 10 March 2009 - 18:03
I have seen far more redirected aggression with a slip or prong collar than I have with the e-collar.Christopher Smith
this maybe true but it doesn't let ecollars off the hook. imo to use a tool well one must know it's limits and it's dangers so the user is able to recognize if and when they are venturing into a problematic application or getting a problematic response from a dog i.e. the dog is not responding well to the training method.
What are you on about? E—collar is just short for electric collar.Christopher Smith
yes but "e" is a buzz 'word' in todays market, and regardless of the history of the collar's name and when it changed/shortened from electronic (or shock) to "e", rightly or wrongly the use of the "e" in the name "ecollar" now carries the inference that this is "cutting edge technology" which is a very marketable concept. i think this is ed baily's point - who btw has written a lot about gundog breeding and training over the years and is no stranger to the value and uses of ecollars - in this article he is commenting on it's abuses and misunderstandings.
for me the point is less about whether the ecollar is a legitimate training tool than it is about over using it or using it inappropriately (i.e. abusing it); and it's about learning to recognizing where the line is between its use and its abuse, even though this line moves on a case by case basis. as i said in the same post as the quotes you are questioning, using it with young pups or pups and dogs that are exhibiting emotional disturbances is abusing the tool in my book. i don't know the state laws - there may not be any for ecollars yet but if enough people continue to abuse this tool there soon will be. with the absences of any laws we are left to our own commonsense to guide us and i would say inflicting pain on a young pup or a deranged dog of any age is simply unfair regardless of the method of compulsion.
dog training is a huge field with a plethora of options, so why take an animals who is so young or so mentally challenged and shock them even to the smallest degree when there are so many other ways to get through to them. if you do want to use an ecollar it ought to be used on confident well trained dog - a second tier of training - a dog who already has some idea of what you want from them and ought not to be used with young untrained pups or addle brained dogs of any age. but as i also said before we all have the right to train our dogs as we so choose so this is jmo, the guidelines i choose for myself and the dogs in my care, and you are free to choose what methods you feel work best for your dogs. the question was asked and i feel confident that in the case the op presented it is indeed a misuse of an ecollar, you may feel differently.
by justcurious on 10 March 2009 - 19:03
that's what makes the world interesting - think of just how boring everything would be if we all thought the same way
"On one hand you say that it is an “easy solution” but on the other hand you say that it’s some incredibly tricky tool to use." Christopher Smith
the "quotes" around the phase denote an assumption, a less than accurate understanding of the situation. my point is there seems to be a general impression that the ecollar is an easy tool to use to get quick results but in reality it is a tricky tool to use well.
"Do you think that people that use the e-collar are so stupid that they think that using such a hard tool to master is the easy way to go? How does that work, the hard tool is the easy way? That make no sense at all." Christopher Smith
some people are stupid, and some are delusional, and some are brilliant and some people are ..., but this has nothing to do with ecollar users as a whole and making such a sweeping judgment on such a diverse group of people is senseless. i would say that there is a faulty, and perhaps even commonly held, impression that the device is easy to use without any adverse side effects, and many have the impression it can be a "quick fix" to many or even all problems when the only thing really easy about the tool is misusing it.
any tool can be used well or dangerously abused, the ecollar is no different. you may be using it in a most impressive way doesn't mean the trainer and owner the op is asking about are, and there is a real concern about this tool being used on this pup - again you may disagree but opinions were asked for and given.
by OGBS on 10 March 2009 - 19:03
E-collar, actually, has traditionally been used in the pet world to mean Elizabethan Collar. The lampshade the vet puts on your cat or dog so that it won't lick a wound, incision, etc.
E-Collar from a marketing standpoint does sound much better than Electric or Shock.
Maybe we could call them "Stimulation Collars" and then for those "in the know" they could be S-Collars.
by Louise M. Penery on 10 March 2009 - 19:03
Which would you rather have around your neck: an e-collar (whose sensation may be that of a bug crawling across the skin) or a pinch collar?
by hodie on 10 March 2009 - 20:03
If one sees the pup shutting down, that should be the first clue that something is very wrong. There is no need of these kinds of methods at this age. As someone already pointed out.....too many think they are experts and they don't know squat about how to train, or about training theory either, for that matter. This conversation confirms that.
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