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by Mystere on 27 March 2009 - 20:03
There are certain things that you will read in ads on-line or in magazines that should be a BIG RED FLAG. When you see these words on a breeder's website or ad, RUN away, far away. Do not call, email or write. Just have nothing to do with that breeder.
1. "Rare" especially with respect to color. What it really means is that the dog/puppy's color come from recessive genes and may be colors that make that dog unbreedable (for those following the SV breed standards) or unsuitable for shows (if that is your interest). Blue and liver (red) are the result of dilute genes. Reputable breeders try to avoid producing such colors. There are no inherent health risks and the dogs are often quite beautiful. However--beware of ANY breeder who specifically breeds for these "off" colors. That breeder is highly suspec, especially if the puppies are not sold on a spay/neuter agreement AND at a reduced price. RUN.
2. Beware: Breeders who give a "warranty" rather than a "guarantee." In some states, the difference in nomenclature makes a difference in what kind of "protection" you have. KNOW the effect!
3. Beware: Breeders who "guarantee" or "warranty" hips only for 'crippling dysplasis. Who decides how much is "crippled"? If you are engaged in any physical ventures with your dog (schutzhund, agility, flyball, etc. ANY dysplasia can end that pursuit). RUN
4. Beware: Breeders whose hip guarantees run out BEFORE a dog can get OFA certification at two years old. OFA does NOT certify prior to age 2. So, a hip "guarantee" until 12, 16, 18 or 20 months is worthless. It is NO guarantee. RUN.
5. Beware: Breeders who get no health clearances on their breeding stock. ALL of the breeders dogs should have OFA certification at a minimum. If not....RUN.
6. Beware: Breeders who want to meet you at parks, etc. and will bring the puppies to you for you to see. You gotta ask what they are hiding "back at the ranch." What don't they want you to see about how the dogs at their place are kept?
7. Beware: Breeders who make much ado about the "name" dogs in the puppies' pedigrees. If it is not an actual parent, and/or it is a great, great, great, great, great , great, great grandparent... so what? Count back in your own family-tree. What did you get from your six-times great grandmother from Transylvania? Nothing, right?
8. Beware: Breeders whose name or kennel names comes up too often with negative comments on a Google search. Sure, there will be sour-grapes and buyers who are nut-cases themselves from time to time. But, ask yourself why you don't names like "Bullinger" coming up with similar negative comments and numbers of negative comments, with the number of bitches that kennel owns. Assume that if the same names come up over and over with horror stories about bad business practices and/or the dogs sold--RUN.
If your Google search leads to threads on this forum--READ them. In the end, you will undoubtedly RUN.
9. Beware: Breeders who claim to be breedi
1. "Rare" especially with respect to color. What it really means is that the dog/puppy's color come from recessive genes and may be colors that make that dog unbreedable (for those following the SV breed standards) or unsuitable for shows (if that is your interest). Blue and liver (red) are the result of dilute genes. Reputable breeders try to avoid producing such colors. There are no inherent health risks and the dogs are often quite beautiful. However--beware of ANY breeder who specifically breeds for these "off" colors. That breeder is highly suspec, especially if the puppies are not sold on a spay/neuter agreement AND at a reduced price. RUN.
2. Beware: Breeders who give a "warranty" rather than a "guarantee." In some states, the difference in nomenclature makes a difference in what kind of "protection" you have. KNOW the effect!
3. Beware: Breeders who "guarantee" or "warranty" hips only for 'crippling dysplasis. Who decides how much is "crippled"? If you are engaged in any physical ventures with your dog (schutzhund, agility, flyball, etc. ANY dysplasia can end that pursuit). RUN
4. Beware: Breeders whose hip guarantees run out BEFORE a dog can get OFA certification at two years old. OFA does NOT certify prior to age 2. So, a hip "guarantee" until 12, 16, 18 or 20 months is worthless. It is NO guarantee. RUN.
5. Beware: Breeders who get no health clearances on their breeding stock. ALL of the breeders dogs should have OFA certification at a minimum. If not....RUN.
6. Beware: Breeders who want to meet you at parks, etc. and will bring the puppies to you for you to see. You gotta ask what they are hiding "back at the ranch." What don't they want you to see about how the dogs at their place are kept?
7. Beware: Breeders who make much ado about the "name" dogs in the puppies' pedigrees. If it is not an actual parent, and/or it is a great, great, great, great, great , great, great grandparent... so what? Count back in your own family-tree. What did you get from your six-times great grandmother from Transylvania? Nothing, right?
8. Beware: Breeders whose name or kennel names comes up too often with negative comments on a Google search. Sure, there will be sour-grapes and buyers who are nut-cases themselves from time to time. But, ask yourself why you don't names like "Bullinger" coming up with similar negative comments and numbers of negative comments, with the number of bitches that kennel owns. Assume that if the same names come up over and over with horror stories about bad business practices and/or the dogs sold--RUN.
If your Google search leads to threads on this forum--READ them. In the end, you will undoubtedly RUN.
9. Beware: Breeders who claim to be breedi
by Schluterton on 27 March 2009 - 21:03
You were on a roll with a great post but it got cut off .......... bummer.
by GreenEarthK9 on 27 March 2009 - 21:03
Well said , Mystere!
by Mystere on 27 March 2009 - 21:03
9. Beware: Breeders who claim that their dogs "mostly" to to police departments. They make this claim because if is very difficult, if not impossible, for you to verify the claim. RUN
10. Beware: Breeders who claim their studs are "certified police dogs." Certified does NOT mean that it is a K9 officer on the street with some police department. Those "certifications" are often from fly-by-night outfits that will sell you a certification that your dog is an accredited acupuncturist and pastry-chef, if you pay the fee. RUN.
11. Beware: Breeders who claim to be breeding dogs suitable for Schutzhund, Ring, SAR, etc. but cannot refer you to a single place where you can see any of these dogs work. RUN.
12. Beware: Breeders of particular lines whose only references are other breeders with those lines. This is the same kind of name-switching crooked auto shops use. if you'd run from that auto-mechanic...RUN.
10. Beware: Breeders who claim their studs are "certified police dogs." Certified does NOT mean that it is a K9 officer on the street with some police department. Those "certifications" are often from fly-by-night outfits that will sell you a certification that your dog is an accredited acupuncturist and pastry-chef, if you pay the fee. RUN.
11. Beware: Breeders who claim to be breeding dogs suitable for Schutzhund, Ring, SAR, etc. but cannot refer you to a single place where you can see any of these dogs work. RUN.
12. Beware: Breeders of particular lines whose only references are other breeders with those lines. This is the same kind of name-switching crooked auto shops use. if you'd run from that auto-mechanic...RUN.
by animules on 27 March 2009 - 21:03
Excellent Nia.
by VonIsengard on 27 March 2009 - 21:03
I have to disagree with you about mild dysplasia, Mystere. I have a dog who is OFA "moderate dysplasia" (I dont breed her, of course) who has no problem whatsoever getting her UD, doing PPD and obstacle work, and I will be running her in agility this year. She turns 7 in October. Mild dysplaysia is not a death knell for a pet or many lower impact dog sports, especially when a dog is well cared for and in good condition. But I will agree that "crippling" is a term that is too open to interpretation. Certainly a puppy sold as a show/sport prospect should be guaranteed against ANY level of dysplasia.
The rest of it is spot on, 110%.
I would like to add RUN LIKE HELL when a breeder claims their puppies are PERFECT for schutzhund, conformation, K9, SAR, OB, etc. when NOT ONE of their breeding stock has a single one of said certifications, ratings, or titles.
Beware of breeders who harp on and on on their websites how political shows are, how outdated and inaccurate schutzhund and the german breeding system is, how families dont NEED to buy from show breeders because they dont NEED show dogs...excuses, excuses.
The rest of it is spot on, 110%.
I would like to add RUN LIKE HELL when a breeder claims their puppies are PERFECT for schutzhund, conformation, K9, SAR, OB, etc. when NOT ONE of their breeding stock has a single one of said certifications, ratings, or titles.
Beware of breeders who harp on and on on their websites how political shows are, how outdated and inaccurate schutzhund and the german breeding system is, how families dont NEED to buy from show breeders because they dont NEED show dogs...excuses, excuses.
by Mystere on 27 March 2009 - 21:03
13. Beware: Breeders who claim to breed working dogs, and tout the schutzhund titles of their studs, fathers of bitches, etc. yet, NONE of their bitches are titled. RUN.
14. Beware: Breeders who ask more than $1500 for (almost) any baby puppy. Puppies are a crap shoot, at best. NOT a one of them is worth $2500, particularly if it is working line. The going rate for a working line puppy is $900-1500. Personally, I cannot imagine a world in which I'd ever pay more than $1500 for a puppy--and that puppy would have to be a repeat breeding, so I know what the parents produced last time, the pedigree (which is only an indication of potential) had better be dynamite, AND the breeder would have to be someone I trust explicitly based on a relationship for years. I can get a nice piece of jade jewelry for that amount, or fly to Paris for the weekend.
Show line puppies cost more--John Q. Public thinks all gsds are black and red. They aren't worth $2500, either, but that is the going rate for them.
Now, a puppy from a breeding of the 4-time BSP winner to a bitch that was #2 at the BSP, and will only be bred the one time, due to age, with a pedigree that would make any working person drool down their t-shirts might be worth paying $2500-4000 for...but, it is still a crap shoot. The most accomplished dogs are NOT always the best producers. Sometimes, it is a sibling who is the best producer.
14. Beware: Breeders who ask more than $1500 for (almost) any baby puppy. Puppies are a crap shoot, at best. NOT a one of them is worth $2500, particularly if it is working line. The going rate for a working line puppy is $900-1500. Personally, I cannot imagine a world in which I'd ever pay more than $1500 for a puppy--and that puppy would have to be a repeat breeding, so I know what the parents produced last time, the pedigree (which is only an indication of potential) had better be dynamite, AND the breeder would have to be someone I trust explicitly based on a relationship for years. I can get a nice piece of jade jewelry for that amount, or fly to Paris for the weekend.
Show line puppies cost more--John Q. Public thinks all gsds are black and red. They aren't worth $2500, either, but that is the going rate for them.
Now, a puppy from a breeding of the 4-time BSP winner to a bitch that was #2 at the BSP, and will only be bred the one time, due to age, with a pedigree that would make any working person drool down their t-shirts might be worth paying $2500-4000 for...but, it is still a crap shoot. The most accomplished dogs are NOT always the best producers. Sometimes, it is a sibling who is the best producer.
by july9000 on 27 March 2009 - 21:03
OK..pretty good so far for me LOL
Dysplasia is dysplasia..mild or moderate I don't care if your dog can jump and earn a UD, If you buy your dog from me it is garantee even if he is 3 years old.
Beware of breeders bashing other breeders..they should talk about their dogs and what they have achieved and the ind of dogs they raise..beware of places where you can't touch the dog or interact with them..
Dysplasia is dysplasia..mild or moderate I don't care if your dog can jump and earn a UD, If you buy your dog from me it is garantee even if he is 3 years old.
Beware of breeders bashing other breeders..they should talk about their dogs and what they have achieved and the ind of dogs they raise..beware of places where you can't touch the dog or interact with them..
by Jenni78 on 27 March 2009 - 22:03
I mostly agree...except that there are other venues for "work" besides Sch. Someone who doesn't title their bitches may not like Sch. That doesn't make them a bad breeder and it doesn't mean that what they are breeding are puppies suitable for pet homes. It's hard to lay down a blanket rule for situations like this. A newbie needs to look further into it, not make any rash, emotional decisions, and seek the help of someone who knows what they're doing. There are exceptions to every rule.
I also wouldn't necessarily let people interact w/my male. I prefer that he not interact w/strangers; strangers are not his friends. Does this mean something shady is going on?
BUYER BEWARE.
I also wouldn't necessarily let people interact w/my male. I prefer that he not interact w/strangers; strangers are not his friends. Does this mean something shady is going on?
BUYER BEWARE.
by Mystere on 27 March 2009 - 22:03
Jenn,
You will note that I specifically referred to people who "tout" the schutzhund titles, not likely to be among those who don't like schutzhund. In fact, it was an actual website, complete with references to a "sister" kennel and their schutzhund dogs.
If it means enough for the breeder to be bragging about it, I expect to see them doing it.
I've made this point before: TEMPERAMENT is paramount. I expect a working line puppy, even one that has loads of drive, to be suitable for pet home, due to a stable, balanced temperament, and good nerves. I have owned an "over the top drive" male and he would have been fine in a pet home, due to his temperament and nerve. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. In fact, some of the show breeders I know place skads of their puppies in pet homes. Those dogs have little or no drive, but, IMO, they are unsuitable for pet homes because they are nervy and have iffy temperaments.
You will note that I specifically referred to people who "tout" the schutzhund titles, not likely to be among those who don't like schutzhund. In fact, it was an actual website, complete with references to a "sister" kennel and their schutzhund dogs.
If it means enough for the breeder to be bragging about it, I expect to see them doing it.
I've made this point before: TEMPERAMENT is paramount. I expect a working line puppy, even one that has loads of drive, to be suitable for pet home, due to a stable, balanced temperament, and good nerves. I have owned an "over the top drive" male and he would have been fine in a pet home, due to his temperament and nerve. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. In fact, some of the show breeders I know place skads of their puppies in pet homes. Those dogs have little or no drive, but, IMO, they are unsuitable for pet homes because they are nervy and have iffy temperaments.
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