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by amir on 28 April 2009 - 22:04
For Mystere
I feel from your tricky question that you make big deep abyss between yourself and other part, I feel start point for never ending story about workline/showline GSD, pro and contra and I feel that you have ready answer before putting question. I do not want to be on any of that two sides. I also split dogs on two different sides but for me exists only good dogs and bad dogs. I also know only your nick Mystere and under your nick there is no regular e-mail, no kennel, no address, no Web ddress... I can see that you are very, very active on that board as you have thousands posts and maybe other people from forum know you personally but for me you are no name person so for a start any constructive dialog it is normal to introduce yourself. It is your turn to do it. I have not got anything to hide. My name, address, phone, work, references etc. everything are visible. I do not like to vast my time with no-name forum provocateur. Pardon me if I make mistake. We do not just hire WUSW participants - they are main part of our team and we work together on project to place dogs to serve and protect through working in military departments around world including US and our dogs are one ring in a chain which contribute peace and freedom to many homes. You can not imagine what kind of pressure and stress in live situations our dogs could handle under control and that is not sport or game and in that environment I will be surprised if you with your dog together do not call for a help. From that point of view one or two trial more or less in some period of 12-18 months are trivial for me. And I must disappoint you as Gittano had last trial IPO3 in Belgrade on 20.02.2008. In March he came to us in Zagreb and we start to prepare him for Aachen 2008. If you are more curious I invite you again to visit us on location in MI and there you can check this as all original documents are with Gittano. It is very important question - did you visit Sieger in Chicago and saw Gittano in live? I do not think so. Because that type of your question about Gittano trial is wrong addressed. You can like or dislike any dog or type of dog but it is not fair to try to prejudice dog. After all Gittano is the best Rocco son on the World, he prove his quality on tron in 6 different countries under many different SV German judges. In Chicago after stand examination he was on second place but because of two much adrenaline we finished on VA5. We must run with him 5 to 6 kilometers before show to calm him and that was judge advice for future, too. Gittano in practice every single day Monday to Friday run around 20km and he is running machine with big wish and energy. Over weekend is time for rest.
by Mystere on 29 April 2009 - 00:04
WHEW!! Amir, that is about the most DEFENSIVE post I have ever seen to such a SIMPLE question!! No "tricky" question at all. Talk about paranoid!! 
In among all the defensiveness, including unsolicited excuses for his show placement, was a simple answer--he trialed in Yugoslavia in February of last year. Goody-goody! Wasn't that painless? Now, I won't ask any further questions of you, because I don't want to stress you out.
Just a hint, though, you might want to dispense with responses like your last one. It would remind the "old timers" on this forum too much of a "Meadow with repeating sounds," who was totally discredited.
In among all the defensiveness, including unsolicited excuses for his show placement, was a simple answer--he trialed in Yugoslavia in February of last year. Goody-goody! Wasn't that painless? Now, I won't ask any further questions of you, because I don't want to stress you out.
Just a hint, though, you might want to dispense with responses like your last one. It would remind the "old timers" on this forum too much of a "Meadow with repeating sounds," who was totally discredited.
by TessJ10 on 29 April 2009 - 00:04
Now, now, Mystere, as soon as I saw your 'where has he been trialed' question I remembered the Universal Sieger thread from last year and all your comments about "phony declarants" and "disingenuous marketing ploys" or whatever similar language you used. Yeah, I did figure you were getting ready to start bashing if the answer wasn't to your liking and Gittano declared for U.S.
by Mystere on 29 April 2009 - 00:04
That's YOU ASSuming, Tess. I asked a simple question--period. No need for all the drama, paranoia, and assumptions. Why is it that show folks IMMEDIATELY get defensive, if there is a single, simple question regarding trials? Frankly, it is just the sort of fear-biter response that I had hoped most had outgrown.
NO ONE has even mentioned Universal Sieger, and I certainly did NOT ask him if he intended to run for it. Candidly, after the dishonest bull__ of all the phony declarations last year, I really DO NOT CARE. The point has been made, and the procedure changed so that such crappy phony- tooting would not be done at this year's SS. The real potentials are already known, anyway: Boy and the other working line dog.
by RatPackKing on 29 April 2009 - 01:04
Amir,
You said to mystere ........."You can like or dislike any dog or type of dog but it is not fair to try to prejudice dog".
No worries, she does the same in her politics on this board
RPK
You said to mystere ........."You can like or dislike any dog or type of dog but it is not fair to try to prejudice dog".
No worries, she does the same in her politics on this board
RPK
by Phil Behun on 01 May 2009 - 01:05
So this is what a perfect performance test is for a VA dog??? This is the "courage" you are looking for? I'm just wondering what a VA or "Excellent Select" dog that is "Recommended for Breeding" is supposed to look like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LpMz_6xUj4
Now I know it's not a trial so you are allowed to grab the collar and give him a couple of jerks to pick his head up (which fell down anyway) before the healing to the blind. And I know that you are allowed to put your leash on and correct the dog and then knee him in the chops while healing away from the helper. And I also know that you can out your dog by using his name as once again, it is not a trial. But here is where I have issue, do you not see the avoidance in the dog exhibited by his constant sniffing during the healing toward the blind? And don't you think that if the dog had "pronounced" courage that he would have some desire to even acknowledge the existence of the "bad guy" helper that just finished "attacking his handler" as he is healed away? Again, down goes the head as if it were too heavy for his big strong body!!
Now I have a question for the "Show Dog" clan, LOOK AT THE GRIPS !!!! Is that what you are striving for? The attack out of the blind was embarrassing. The dog never made an effort to come off of the ground. If the helper stood up straight and held the sleeve in a normal position the dog would have bitten his knee and by the looks of it, not very hard.
I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin', is this the future of the once proud "German Shepherd Dog"? Seems I have read the word gorgeous more than once on this subject lately. Is that what's more important? By reading Amir's comments I am led to believe that this is what he believes is a strong example of the breed. So what you are saying is, I (and many others posting on this thread) don't know what I am seeing. That my eyes are deceiving me and I am lying about what I see, correct?
On a trip to Germany to compete at the 2005 FMBB World Championship, I was told in no uncertain terms by a prominent GSD showline breeder, that he did not care about the grip, only the movement. Is this the case all over the world? Movement is more inportant than working ability? Is this what Capt. von Stephanitz had in mind for his beloved breed? I held my friend Tobias hostage and made him watch the weekend's festivities where he informed me (something I already knew) that the GSD was not even the preferred dog for police K9 in Germany anymore. Imagine, the namesake breed for the country and it has been reduced to a gorgeous, elegant moving poodle.
Now I know it's not a trial so you are allowed to grab the collar and give him a couple of jerks to pick his head up (which fell down anyway) before the healing to the blind. And I know that you are allowed to put your leash on and correct the dog and then knee him in the chops while healing away from the helper. And I also know that you can out your dog by using his name as once again, it is not a trial. But here is where I have issue, do you not see the avoidance in the dog exhibited by his constant sniffing during the healing toward the blind? And don't you think that if the dog had "pronounced" courage that he would have some desire to even acknowledge the existence of the "bad guy" helper that just finished "attacking his handler" as he is healed away? Again, down goes the head as if it were too heavy for his big strong body!!
Now I have a question for the "Show Dog" clan, LOOK AT THE GRIPS !!!! Is that what you are striving for? The attack out of the blind was embarrassing. The dog never made an effort to come off of the ground. If the helper stood up straight and held the sleeve in a normal position the dog would have bitten his knee and by the looks of it, not very hard.
I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin', is this the future of the once proud "German Shepherd Dog"? Seems I have read the word gorgeous more than once on this subject lately. Is that what's more important? By reading Amir's comments I am led to believe that this is what he believes is a strong example of the breed. So what you are saying is, I (and many others posting on this thread) don't know what I am seeing. That my eyes are deceiving me and I am lying about what I see, correct?
On a trip to Germany to compete at the 2005 FMBB World Championship, I was told in no uncertain terms by a prominent GSD showline breeder, that he did not care about the grip, only the movement. Is this the case all over the world? Movement is more inportant than working ability? Is this what Capt. von Stephanitz had in mind for his beloved breed? I held my friend Tobias hostage and made him watch the weekend's festivities where he informed me (something I already knew) that the GSD was not even the preferred dog for police K9 in Germany anymore. Imagine, the namesake breed for the country and it has been reduced to a gorgeous, elegant moving poodle.
by Uber Land on 01 May 2009 - 01:05
movement is more important than working ability.
hummmm....... wasn't this the idea of the american show breeders?
hummmm....... wasn't this the idea of the american show breeders?
by VonIsengard on 01 May 2009 - 02:05
I believe, Phil, except for a few numbskulls, you are preaching to the choir. As I have 4 showline dogs currently in my home, 3 of which I own, one of which I bred, I guess that makes one of the "show dog clan". However, I no longer frequent conformation events unless I need a rating on a dog. And I do believe I will keep it that way. The whole damn thing was too expensive, politcal, and cliquey. I saw the piss poor grips, and had you seen me, you would note I sure as hell wasn't clapping for them. As I've said, there was a small number of dogs whose bitework ranged, in my eyes, from acceptable to good.
Uberland, too true.
That said, I have to comment that I find it ironic that people who have never owned a showline dog, attempted to train, hell, I see some people who don't even own a GSD have something to say here. You don't catch me on AmLine boards telling them what crap their dogs are. I have better things to do and those dogs don't even exist to me. I'm surprised more working line people don't feel the same. Just an observation, no one take it personal.
Very few show line fanciers give a rats ass about actually training them. This, of course, means that weaker dogs are being slipped into the gene more often than roofies in the chocolate milk at Neverland. (come on, you know you needed to lighten up). It does not, however, mean that all show line dogs are crap. Some (not all, I saw a few lost causes) of these dogs could be performing much, MUCH better with appropriate training. I know a few dogs who did poorly, some of these dogs I have seen work much better at past Sieger Shows.
Come on, SOMEBODY told these people those dogs were ready to go on a damn field. Who the hell are these "trainers"? Why in God's green earth do you take your dog out when there is even the barest chance it will spook when the agitator raises that stick? Which of course begs the question: Then why on earth do you breed it? You owe it the breed to you claim to love to train that dog better, and prove to yourself and your peers that the dog truly is breedworthy. And if it isn't, cut your losses and sure as hell don't breed it.
In a perfect world, right?
Uberland, too true.
That said, I have to comment that I find it ironic that people who have never owned a showline dog, attempted to train, hell, I see some people who don't even own a GSD have something to say here. You don't catch me on AmLine boards telling them what crap their dogs are. I have better things to do and those dogs don't even exist to me. I'm surprised more working line people don't feel the same. Just an observation, no one take it personal.
Very few show line fanciers give a rats ass about actually training them. This, of course, means that weaker dogs are being slipped into the gene more often than roofies in the chocolate milk at Neverland. (come on, you know you needed to lighten up). It does not, however, mean that all show line dogs are crap. Some (not all, I saw a few lost causes) of these dogs could be performing much, MUCH better with appropriate training. I know a few dogs who did poorly, some of these dogs I have seen work much better at past Sieger Shows.
Come on, SOMEBODY told these people those dogs were ready to go on a damn field. Who the hell are these "trainers"? Why in God's green earth do you take your dog out when there is even the barest chance it will spook when the agitator raises that stick? Which of course begs the question: Then why on earth do you breed it? You owe it the breed to you claim to love to train that dog better, and prove to yourself and your peers that the dog truly is breedworthy. And if it isn't, cut your losses and sure as hell don't breed it.
In a perfect world, right?
by artillery on 01 May 2009 - 02:05
Gittano did very well in the bitework.
by Rik on 01 May 2009 - 03:05
Uber said "movement is more important than working ability.
hummmm....... wasn't this the idea of the american show breeder"
Uber, unless you have seen it first hand it is diffulcult to imagine how true this statement is. I showed Am. S/L for many years and very few breeders consider anything past movement. Bad hips, elbows, missing teeth, spooks, nothing matters if the dog has movement. I have seen people line up to breed to dogs with any issue you can name.
I have not found that total lack of concern in SV conformation and there are safeguards in place to promote good hips and elbows. Also if a dog is KKL1 then you know the teeth are there. But somewhere the line must be drawn over what is acceptable character or it will continue to decline.
Rik
hummmm....... wasn't this the idea of the american show breeder"
Uber, unless you have seen it first hand it is diffulcult to imagine how true this statement is. I showed Am. S/L for many years and very few breeders consider anything past movement. Bad hips, elbows, missing teeth, spooks, nothing matters if the dog has movement. I have seen people line up to breed to dogs with any issue you can name.
I have not found that total lack of concern in SV conformation and there are safeguards in place to promote good hips and elbows. Also if a dog is KKL1 then you know the teeth are there. But somewhere the line must be drawn over what is acceptable character or it will continue to decline.
Rik
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