Who are our new USA Sieger + Siegerin? - Page 5

"Gittano did very well in the bitework."


Did you see the video????  Those still photos show nothing.  You can't see the grip from the side of the mouth.  Both helpers are shielding the grips and almost running straight into the dog.  If the dog were being correctly driven you would see that the grips were failing.  I saw them, I was there on the side where the dogs were exiting the field.  I had a perfect view of the grips (??) and shiny teeth, which if done "very well", I shouldn't have been able to see.  Please, explain to me what you see in the video of his work.  Is this what you want to define as VA?


For those of you that think I am commenting on a breed that I don't even own, I have owned over a dozen GSD's in my time both show and working.  I currently have 2 of them that I am raising and training for clients abroad and as recently as last year,  placed a Quincy vom Waldwinkel (Vice Bundessieger 2005) son that I had invested several thousand dollars on through importation and subsequent surgery for a closed growth plate.  So, I kinda do have experience with the breed over my last almost 30 years in dogs, thank you for asking. 

I started out with american showlines.  I had a Clayfield Woodside Texaco/Leiter's Excalibur granddaughter.  her sire was Clihu bred.  also some Crosstimber lines.  I know quite a few american breeders too.  I have heard many stories about chairs falling at Select shows and dogs in the rings basically losing their bowls from the loud noise.

I have also had comments from vets upon seeing one of my german dogs, sdking me why mine doesn't scream when it sees people like the ones they have in back owned by a show person.

I just hope the german showlines do not go this same route.  I am not an american shepherd hater, as there are some good ones,  they have done alot of work with the lines the best 10 years.

I was unaware there was video from the Sieger Show in Chicago, where these were taken. What is posted is what I could see/photograph from where I was. Nothing more or less. The video that was linked was shot in Aachen and I was unfortunately not there, so I can't comment on the dogs performance there nor provide supplemental photography. I agree, photography only captures a brief moment of time in histroy and reveals only what is visable at that moment, from that level and that angle.

As for the use of the termonology, I stand by it. I didn't say he was great or outstanding, just that he did very well. I would use the term 'did outstanding' for Boy and for Ork though.

We'll never solve the issues facing the breed over a web forum however. We can each only do our part and put forth our best dogs in hopes that others will do the same. For the most part, I'd take a solid V dog that can work anyday. ;)

I hate to beat a dead horse but to me this is serious stuff.  Dogs are my life and my job.  This was our National Championship Conformation Show people!!!  If the "Working Class" dogs and bitches were not supposed to be able to perform the bite portion, WHY IS IT IN THERE????


I just saw the photos of the VA1 and VA2 females and the VA7 male.  THE GIRLS NEVER HIT THE SLEEVE ON THE ATTACK OUT OF THE BLIND!!!!!!!  They both missed the grip and are over the arm.  They barely had canines caught on the sleeve through the drives and if they were driven any longer they would have fallen right off.  You can see what I mean by the helper shielding the view when you look at Gorbi's grips.  Looks full when the helper's back is to the camera but when he turns to drive the dog, the dog absolutely slides right off.  I repeat once again,  is this VA, "Excellent Select" work???  You cannot tell me that this is the "Best of the Best".  Someone help me out here, is this what you want from the German Shepherd Dog? 

So I guess what you are saying is that the video is false?  Because you weren't there the video doesn't exist?  If you are as much of a GSD lover as you proclaim, why don't you admit that there is a problem?  What is your reaction to the the statement by my friend Tobias, who happens to be one of Dr. Helmut Raiser's personal helpers, that the GSD is no longer the preferred dog for K9 work in Germany?  Shouldn't you want to strive to make the breed better?  Isn't that what breeding is all about?  Breeding to improve the breed?  Ahhh, life in America is great isn't it?  We just pull a blanket over our heads and pretend it doesn't exist.

Oh, it's more than a blanket. Its a -30 degree sleeping bag, zipped over our heads, with earmuffs and a blindfold. I don't think you saw I was, on a whole, agreeing with you.

You can't make a blind man see. Instead of beating the topic, may I suggest we start a new one? I would love to discuss the deficiencies in training in detail, precisely what helpers, trainers, and breeders need to be doing to bring these dogs to their full potential. How exactly one would discern between a dog with weak training and one with weak nerve. We've all had a chance to vent, now lets get constructive.

Phil, I would be interested to see pedigree links to West German dogs you had experience with that you felt were real workers, if there are any links to be had. Certainly a dog that can be respected by a fancier of hardcore working dogs would be of great interest to me. Anything recent and in our area? Try not to take offense this time, these are honest questions. I know there are great showline dogs out there whose owners do not bother with Sieger shows at all.

Most recently I believe there was a video posted about a CZ showline dog (?) by my friend JB, I think.  Not sure.  Can't remember if it was here or where I saw it.  I think it was in the last couple of months and the dog really came on the long bite and worked through the man.  No gathering, no breakdown, just extreme commitment.  I haven't seen any other areas of the dog's work but what I did see, I really liked.  Could have had a nice one years ago, if memory serves me he was a Visum son.  He was SchHIII, V rated Kkl1 but had a galloping heart beat or 3rd heart beat and an elbow that would have needed surgery.  Thank goodness for vets you can trust.  Back he went.

Kelly:
If we all give up on bringing good performing showline dogs to the comformation ring because of percieved poor placement, we are as guilty of ruining the breed as the ones that bring the poor bitters to the ring.  

The only way the Sieger Show will change for the better is to bring the better performance dogs and working dogs to the show.   This will only be accomplished by small breeders and a grass roots effort towards that end.  Its a David vs. Golithe senerio, but of those that can stay home and do not compete and show the way the dog should be, they should not complain as they become part of the problem.
Finances are an issue, but there is no reason why expenses cannot be shared by those willing to work together for a greater good. 

One attmept will not result in the win, but repeated ones and a good campain can succeed over time.  The big breeders are not financing all this themselves, they are conglomerates of little people sharing expenses and handlers.  There is no reason other than lack or organization and guts that prevents several smaller people from doing the same.  This is what clubs are designed for, if they pull together and really support each other instead of each person focusing on themselves, the models set in Germany can succeed here.

No, you misunderstood what I said. Obviously the video exists. What I was saying was that the video isnt what I was commenting on and since I wasn't there to see it for myself, I will not comment on it. That (to me) is being an armchair jockey (trying to tell te jockey how the race should have been ridden when one isnt there to actually experience it).

I never said there wasn't a problem in the Chicago bitework. ANYTIME that many dogs fail a simple SchH1 courage test, there IS A PROBLEM. I , like KCzaja, agree with you on many points. Not all, but a majority. Believe me, performances like some that I saw there make my life harder, because its already difficult being taken as a serious competitor when you show up with a black and red dog. They certainly don't help!

Did anyone see Sonja Monroe Haus's bitework? I LOVED her Daddy's work in CT, and I am a tough customer to please when it comes to working ability.
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