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by MaggieMae on 02 May 2009 - 22:05
Red Sable -- What "bragging rights" do you have ? What is your dog(s) big "claim to fame"? What credentials do you hold, as you portray yourself as an Expert on the Breed?
by Mystere on 02 May 2009 - 22:05
Red Sable,
Okay, the typical defensiveness and fear-biting has started. Time to leave, until next year, when the same discussion will start all over again.
Everyone, PLEASE enjoy your dogs and puppies for who they are.
Adios!
by Phil Behun on 03 May 2009 - 01:05
Maggie, let me ask you a question. Do you understand the "Performance Test"? What is it you believe you are seeing? Okay, that's 2 questions. What is more important to you, working ability or the way a dog looks in a photo? Sorry, that's 3. I'm not attacking any individual owner/handler or any individual dog here, my problem is with the system, the principal behind the "modern" German Shepherd Dog.
by Baldursmom on 03 May 2009 - 01:05
Mystere:
Yes, WDA has made the rule that a dog must be shown in the US prior to be entered in the NASS. I don't believe this will effect the entries, just increase the number of shows in the weeks prior to the NASS. Most will look at the additional shows as ring training or practice runs.
Participating and training for a trail would take substantially more time to prepare and train for. As well as more funds for those that can't train themselves. It would take some time for people to get on the band wagon and begin training and preparing this way. Granted, a valid sch 3 dog should be able to pull off a sch 1 trail with a few months training. Step back and look at this situation, we are now negatively criticizing dogs that just spent months doing the courage routine at least once per week, what makes anyone think that the current owners and trainers can prepare to trail those dogs? Just think of how small the entries would be for a few years, USA could not tolerate the loss in income while the general populace makes the switch int raining and trainers and the sieger show would be a bust for several years. If they (USA) could stand this type of financial pain for a few years, its a great idea. I just do not think USA can withstand the growing pains enough implement the idea.
The solution, in my mind, is more working dogs and show line dogs being entered in the SS after trial competition, advertise the worth and working ability of these dogs and become an example of how it should be. More people need to walk the walk and not just talk the talk, myself included. We don't need more rules that can be broken by additional Midnight trials. We need more dedicated people showing their dogs the way it should be and being acknowledged for their actions. It's our club, our show and our dogs. We are ultimately responsible for what the Sieger Show has become by not showing the working dogs, succumbing to the lure of fast, false titles on our show line dogs and the need to profit from high line litters quicker and faster. We are responsible for changing this, not by ranting on a board, but by being the change we want to see. It will take many like Ravi I. , Bill K. and Jen A. to see this and lead the club into a better future.
I hate to ask this as I think it is unfair on a board like this, but, Mystery, where have you trailed lately, what have you campained in the show ring? Where are you in solving the issues? This is a rhetorical question, ment to cause reflection, by you and others. People need to lead, follow or get the F out of the way!
At this point I need to follow a qualified leader I can learn from, just need to find one!
On a side note:
WDA also recently made it a rule that to trail for WUSV (see the Nationals running this weekend in WI) that a 270 was needed to enter this qualification trail. Entries were extremely low.
Check out the web site:
www.vomhausmiller.com/WDA/Competitors.htm
I wanted to get up there, but my husband is complaining of flu symptoms and I don't want to be a swine flu Mary to the state of WI. So I am staying home and re-reading Stephen King's "The Stand" ! See, I still have my demented sense of humor!
Yes, WDA has made the rule that a dog must be shown in the US prior to be entered in the NASS. I don't believe this will effect the entries, just increase the number of shows in the weeks prior to the NASS. Most will look at the additional shows as ring training or practice runs.
Participating and training for a trail would take substantially more time to prepare and train for. As well as more funds for those that can't train themselves. It would take some time for people to get on the band wagon and begin training and preparing this way. Granted, a valid sch 3 dog should be able to pull off a sch 1 trail with a few months training. Step back and look at this situation, we are now negatively criticizing dogs that just spent months doing the courage routine at least once per week, what makes anyone think that the current owners and trainers can prepare to trail those dogs? Just think of how small the entries would be for a few years, USA could not tolerate the loss in income while the general populace makes the switch int raining and trainers and the sieger show would be a bust for several years. If they (USA) could stand this type of financial pain for a few years, its a great idea. I just do not think USA can withstand the growing pains enough implement the idea.
The solution, in my mind, is more working dogs and show line dogs being entered in the SS after trial competition, advertise the worth and working ability of these dogs and become an example of how it should be. More people need to walk the walk and not just talk the talk, myself included. We don't need more rules that can be broken by additional Midnight trials. We need more dedicated people showing their dogs the way it should be and being acknowledged for their actions. It's our club, our show and our dogs. We are ultimately responsible for what the Sieger Show has become by not showing the working dogs, succumbing to the lure of fast, false titles on our show line dogs and the need to profit from high line litters quicker and faster. We are responsible for changing this, not by ranting on a board, but by being the change we want to see. It will take many like Ravi I. , Bill K. and Jen A. to see this and lead the club into a better future.
I hate to ask this as I think it is unfair on a board like this, but, Mystery, where have you trailed lately, what have you campained in the show ring? Where are you in solving the issues? This is a rhetorical question, ment to cause reflection, by you and others. People need to lead, follow or get the F out of the way!
At this point I need to follow a qualified leader I can learn from, just need to find one!
On a side note:
WDA also recently made it a rule that to trail for WUSV (see the Nationals running this weekend in WI) that a 270 was needed to enter this qualification trail. Entries were extremely low.
Check out the web site:
www.vomhausmiller.com/WDA/Competitors.htm
I wanted to get up there, but my husband is complaining of flu symptoms and I don't want to be a swine flu Mary to the state of WI. So I am staying home and re-reading Stephen King's "The Stand" ! See, I still have my demented sense of humor!
by jayne241 on 03 May 2009 - 02:05
Phil, let me ask you a question, if you don't mind. I know your questions were directed at Maggie, but I'm a complete novice and am trying to learn. You ask Maggie if she understands the "Performance Test." So my question to you is, isn't the Performance Test in the Sieger Show simply pass/fail? So, as long as they do the bite, and the out, they pass - with no "ranking" that will reflect in the ranking of VA or V, right?
That was what I was led to believe, but I'm totally new at this, maybe I misunderstood. But if that's accurate, then maybe the working line people here have something against the rules. Then attack the rules, not the dogs or the owners who play by those rules, right?
If I'm wrong and there is currently a ranking based on the Performance Test in the Sieger Show, then my mistake.
I'm nothing but a pet owner trying to be something more than a pet owner. Trying to learn, and to do something with my dog. To get out there and actually do something with my dog. Isn't that what everyone here advocates? But are you saying that if I can't live up to the most stringent working-line standards, I should just go hide unless I have the skin of a rhinoceros? Because I don't. Have the skin of a rhino, that is. This isn't my career; this is my fun. I understand that it's a career for some folks, and thus is vitally important to them. All I wish is returning good sportsmanship with good sportsmanship and decorum.
I know there are some threads worthy of Jerry Springer. But I also have faith that there are some real high class folks here. Folks who I'm sure can discuss what they value about the breed, and their concerns, likes, and dislikes, without resorting to sarcasm and personal attacks.
I'll slink back to my melting igloo now and leave y'all experts to slug as much as you want amongst yourselves. I'm not trying to tell y'all how to debate what's important to the breed, I'm just offering a few comments from the peanut gallery.
That was what I was led to believe, but I'm totally new at this, maybe I misunderstood. But if that's accurate, then maybe the working line people here have something against the rules. Then attack the rules, not the dogs or the owners who play by those rules, right?
If I'm wrong and there is currently a ranking based on the Performance Test in the Sieger Show, then my mistake.
I'm nothing but a pet owner trying to be something more than a pet owner. Trying to learn, and to do something with my dog. To get out there and actually do something with my dog. Isn't that what everyone here advocates? But are you saying that if I can't live up to the most stringent working-line standards, I should just go hide unless I have the skin of a rhinoceros? Because I don't. Have the skin of a rhino, that is. This isn't my career; this is my fun. I understand that it's a career for some folks, and thus is vitally important to them. All I wish is returning good sportsmanship with good sportsmanship and decorum.
I know there are some threads worthy of Jerry Springer. But I also have faith that there are some real high class folks here. Folks who I'm sure can discuss what they value about the breed, and their concerns, likes, and dislikes, without resorting to sarcasm and personal attacks.
I'll slink back to my melting igloo now and leave y'all experts to slug as much as you want amongst yourselves. I'm not trying to tell y'all how to debate what's important to the breed, I'm just offering a few comments from the peanut gallery.
by Phil Behun on 03 May 2009 - 02:05
Jayne. If my failing memory is correct, the "Performance Test" rating is not pass/fail but is scored 1 of 3 ways, Insufficient, Sufficient or Pronounced. As I stated earlier, I have no vendetta against any owner/handler or dog. My problem is with the system and what it has become. Time was when the German Shepherd Dog was probably the most versatile working dog out there. When the country of it's origin does not even prefer the dog for it's police/military work any longer, there is something going wrong. When people are no longer concerned with the heart and soul of the dog and are rewarded for inferior performance, something is going wrong. I see the separation between the warring factions getting wider and wider and the elusive "Golden Middle" is just wishful thinking.
by Mystere on 03 May 2009 - 03:05
Charlene,
Since you asked, I am NOT a breeder with 6-20 dogs on my property, or "fostered" out in various locations.
I am a working person, literally. I have trialed in Washington, Oregon and Canada. I have shown in the same places.
Additionally, I have supported shows with entries, money, trophy sponsorship, oh, and as show secretary. I have even been a show secretary for a USA Sieger Show. Have YOU ever been a show secretary? Ever entered any trials? Supported trials? Been trial secretary?
As I said and expected, you've gone to full fear-biter mode. So, now YOU answer the questions.
So, what and where HAVE YOU TRAINED AND TRIALED?? WHAT HAVE YOU TITLED?
by luvdemdogs on 03 May 2009 - 03:05
I am trying to follow this conversation, but can't find "Charlene". Have some posts disppeared?
by jayne241 on 03 May 2009 - 03:05
Phil, of course you're absolutely correct, I remembered that right after I posted. Insufficient, Sufficient, and Pronounced. You must be at least sufficient to go on to the ring, right? But I'm not sure if the difference between sufficient and pronounced shows up in the rankings.
I think there was a specific rule-based reason why Boy couldn't get a VA, no matter how good his bitework was, correct?
And I'm in total agreement with you about the desire to return the breed to being the most versatile working dog out there. The desire for the "Golden Middle."
I don't like to see warring factions. I'm a child of the 60's.
I think there was a specific rule-based reason why Boy couldn't get a VA, no matter how good his bitework was, correct?
And I'm in total agreement with you about the desire to return the breed to being the most versatile working dog out there. The desire for the "Golden Middle."
I don't like to see warring factions. I'm a child of the 60's.
by Baldursmom on 03 May 2009 - 03:05
Boy was hindered by only being sch 1. You have to have a 2 to go VA. A 3 to go VA 2x
Most will pull the dog unless they are pronounced in the bitwork.
Most will pull the dog unless they are pronounced in the bitwork.
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