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by gimme10mins on 04 July 2005 - 19:07
Hello everyone,
I have been noticing a trend nowadays in more and more shepherds having less and less black saddles. The dogs are now starting to look completely red. I was just wondering why is it so prevalent? The dogs are all in all beautiful but they lack the traditional pigment. Also it does not seem to be effecting their placings in shows. Has anyone been able to pin point where this fading gene is coming from, i.e which bloodline? I had a female who sire is by Sillo vom Wiesenborn and out of Dina vom Sendling (Tacko Wienerau x Cina Wienerau) he seemed to be all red. He can be viewed on this website. What is the remedy for this fading in the black saddle?
Thanks
by viking on 04 July 2005 - 19:07
In breeding (also reffered to as line-breeding).
by vomlandholz on 04 July 2005 - 19:07
I've also seen alot of dogs going v or va with very little mask at all on the muzzle. More red than black, but judges seem to keep rewarding poor pigment as long as the dog is from a big name.
by gimme10mins on 04 July 2005 - 19:07
In breeding on what dogs? What lines or specific dogs is this gene mostly coming from? What would improve this?
by oso on 04 July 2005 - 21:07
I'm not sure how true or generalised this is, but I have heard that breeding with sables helps to improve the black saddle in the black/red offspring. I have a grandson of Timo Berrekasten, he has a very solid black saddle and mask, so do all his offspring.
by gimme10mins on 04 July 2005 - 22:07
What about breeding to solid black dogs? Would that have a positive effect on the amount of black? I've noticed in the dogs that carry the black recessive gene they tend to have a large amount of black such as on the face and a large saddle and a black tip on the tail. My female she is half show and working her mother was solid black and her sire was almost entirely red she has a large amount of black. You can see her on this site. Her name is Kora Spaidz vom Germelhaus.
by viking on 04 July 2005 - 22:07
Oso, you are absolutely correct. The sable factor does help in the pigment department when crossed with a black & tan/red/brown and the same thing applies vice versa.
Gimme, the fading saddles and poor markings over the scull is evident in all bloodlines, some more than others. The Ursus/Yasko line seems to produce better pigmented dogs than other lines. The Fedor/Mark line seems to me very inconsistent when it comes to pigment. Dogs such as Natz and Baru has produced better pigmented dogs than karly Arminius who's progeny had major lack of pigment.
by vomlandholz on 04 July 2005 - 22:07
I don't see where breeding to black would help anything, since black is recessive to all.
by gimme10mins on 04 July 2005 - 23:07
I understand black is recessive but usually when a dog carries the black recessive they tend to have large portions of black. But you are right vomlandholz it really won't help. That is only an immediate fix for the next generation but as far for the generation after that it really won't help unless the pups happen to get the black recessive and that chance get more narrow as the generations progess.
by viking on 04 July 2005 - 23:07
No one here said that breeding a black & tan/red/brown dog to a black dog helps improving pigment. Breeding black & tan/red/brown to sables does.
breeding a black & tan/red/brown to black will result in Bi color dogs which in not desireable in the show ring.
Go to www.arlett.com where you can find a very interesting article about the sable factor.
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