TIEKERHOOK breedings in the USA???? - Page 14

Well said, Daylehret.  I agree with Duke as well.  I watched the video and thought it was interesting and I like the intensity in both dogs.  I think, and it's my opinion only that what I saw was object guarding and some very intense possessive dogs being agitated while they ate.  The dogs were very controlled, focused and clear headed and gave a very strong message.  I don't equate this with handler aggression at all.  I think it is completely different.  I do believe this can be trained or encouraged inadvertently in the dog and also discouraged in the dog as you have done with your dog.  When I got my current male at 7 weeks he was eating raw chicken wings, he gave a very similar reaction the first time I went near him when he was eating.  He really didn't know me and was guarding a high value item.  I think he would have bit me if I tried to remove it at that time.  So, I worked on this and now can remove or add anything I want to his food bowl.  He has no handler aggression and is a very hard dog.   

I do believe as a young dog my female could have taken a different route with a different owner or different style of training.  Her litter mate at 6 months nailed her owner very badly in the hand.  This owner was very inexperienced and tried to rip his hand out of the dogs mouth, causing a cheese shredder type wound.  The owner left the pup outside all day while he was at work and came home to find the dog digging holes in the yard.  The owner was advised by some genius to fill the holes with water or dog waste.  When the owner came home again and found more holes he became furious at the puppy he left alone all day again.  So, he grabs the dog and starts to stick it's head in the hole screaming at the dog.  Well, the dog nailed him.  Stupid pet owner with some bad advice, with no business owning a dog of that caliber.  I don't blame the dog for that bite because it was defending itself from a moron. 


A dog can display these qualities and whatever degrees lie between them, and each do nothing to facilitate aggressive behavior toward the handler, in fact work against its expression. IOW, in a dog with pronounced qualities like so, incidence of handler aggression should in fact be much lower, despite high provocation. Am I not explaining clearly, or the only one who "gets it"?

This is my experience with Tiekerhook and Yoschy lines, and see no reason to encourage poor or unnecessary corrections in attempt to provoke such an incidence to make my point. I'm not "feeding that wolf."

I think you are explaining it correctly, and the ones who don't get it are the ones who get bit.

FWIW,

Jim

I think the ones who misstake the foodbowl vids for handlerhardness and courage are the ones who dont get it
and many dogs who are capable of attacking the owner are never challenged to a point where they show it , but doesnot mean they dont have it

funnystory
I did a trail on a maliclub ones and trained there a few times before the trail
they were counting who needed the most bandaids after training , they saw it as a plus

Duke,
We must have posted at the same time.  In the case of the Dobie, I don't know what to say.  There are crazy dogs out there.  In the case of the GSD and the dog aggression that is common for a dog to redirect it's aggression or show displaced aggression in a situation like that. 

I've been in that situation many times years ago with a male GSD that I owned.  Raised him from a young dog, but he was very dog aggressive.  I was told the same thing at my club, turn correct, command, turn correct etc.  Repeat as needed.  Well, When I turned and cranked my dog he came right back at me.  I did everything with this dog to socialize him, agility, SchH, long walks.  The dog aggression was there, but If I was training with a toy the dog focused only on me.  There was never an issue on the training field.   But walks in the neighborhood, dogs behind fences, loose dogs it was game on for my guy.  I used that method of turn correct etc,  and I got bit several times.  That is not the way to handle serious dog aggression, IMO.  (this dog was not related to Yoschy or Nick.)  :)

I have learned now that is not the way to deal with dog aggression.  The corrections elevated the aggression and my dog redirected it at me.  There were times when another dog would approach and my dog would get close to my leg (so I couldn't correct) and actually bite and hold the leash.   It is hard to give a good correction when a 85 # GSD is locked on your leash.  He was also ready to spit it out when he wanted to bite. 

I will embarrassingly admit that I now know the displaced aggression was my fault.  This male was the first dog I did SchH with and had some temperament issues.  He was strong, dominant and aggressive with an underlying insecurity to boot. A  fun combination to work with as your first serious dog.  I had always had GSD's but nothing like him.  I have come to realize that the training I did at the time (mid 90's) was not correct for him and I never really established myself as alpha till much later on.  I learned a lot from that dog and vowed never to make the same mistakes again and changed my style of training.  I guess you live and learn. 

I would say the handler of the GSD at your club needs to take some different actions soon before this gets worse.  I would also say it's the handler's fault for not nipping it in the bud sooner.

My current dog / police dog is very dog aggressive.  I am forced through alleyways and backyards in some crappy areas in the middle of the night.  I don't tolerate any dog aggression, not even barking.  I've never been bitten by this dog.  But I don't turn and yank and crank him either, I gave up on that.  Didn't work for me.

JMO,

Jim

Why not handler hardness?  Not sure how courage was figured in, I didn't say that.  "Willingness, tolerance, and forgiveness" makes it less likely to occur, if you care to quote me.

I've already said it a couple times, that most dogs are probably capable of it, so what's your argument?  That handler aggression is cool?  Situational control is admirable, handlers getting bit by their own dogs should be an embarassment.

I don't view displacement aggression as part of handler aggression.  Displacement aggression is directed at the most proximal target, which may incidently be the handler.  Not a direct challenge of the handler's authority.

and many dogs who are capable of attacking the owner are never challenged to a point where they show it , but doesnot mean they dont have it

Duke, why would anyone push or challenge a dog to that point?   Yes, there are dogs that just like people have a "limit".  If you push them beyond that limit with severe or unfair treatment will react aggressively.  I don't think that is the dogs fault, but the handler's fault.  If you take away all of a dogs options such as flight, avoidance, submission and only leave it with the option to fight then it will fight.  Or even given all of the options some dogs will still stand and fight, why push it that far? 

If you are saying that many dogs, regardless of pedigree could be pushed into being handler aggressive in certain situations, I would agree.  But, I don't see a need to push a dog in that direction.  An example would be your friend's GSD at the club.  He is pushing that dog into being handler aggressive, by strong corrections and elevating the dog's aggression.  The first time the dog turns and directs at the handler even before it bites it learns it can, especially if the handler flinches or steps back. 

Your two examples of the Dobie and GSD did not occur overnight.  This has been unintentionally trained into these dogs.  If the guy with the GSD uses a prong collar, I will bet he gets nailed again.  I'm sure there were some other instances of the Dobie showing aggression before this unless it had some underlying medical issue.  

I think this thread has gotten a little off track.  But, I have learned some things from this thread and I want to thank some of the people that posted.  Like Molly, Gustav, Daryl and Duke that have recently posted to the thread.  Perhaps, it is not Yoschy that produced Handler aggressive dogs, just that he produced great dogs who produced great dogs.   I'm more inclined to believe that when you have that many progeny out of one dog a small percantage will have issues.  You really can't blame him for that.

FWIW,

Jim

jim wrote
If you are saying that many dogs, regardless of pedigree could be pushed into being handler aggressive in certain situations,

thats not what I mean ,small problem on boards is that some points dont come over as you mean them


also Im not talking about pushing a dog into something but simply enforcing your commands while working
if you have a dog thats willing or capable of correcting his handler , you can unintentionally avoid this by accepting he doesnot follow up every command you give him ,
if the same dog ends up with a handler who wants to go into competition trails and is forced to follow up every command given , you could end up with a conflict

this has nothing to do with unfair corrections or poor handling or pushing a dog further than needed
but the ability to do this is geneticly locked in certain lines/dogs
in certain lines you wont see this behaviour at all . so darylls point that most dogs are capable of doing this is not correct IMO at least not in normal training where the handler asks 100% of the dog

jim wrote

Your two examples of the Dobie and GSD did not occur overnight. This has been unintentionally trained into these dogs.

it didnot occur overnight , but itsnot trained into them , its geneticly there , and brought out by a conflict of leadership

basically I would say handleragression cannot be trained into a dog if its not there , but with unfair handling and abuse you can corner many dogs into a flight or fight situation , and some will choose to fight ,but thats a whole different thing

Update!

Duke, My crystal ball says look here. .www.tiekerhook.com/index.php/usa-tiekerhook-usa/15.html

I will be going out to see the progress this week.

Too bad the ball doesn't show me the Powerball.  I'm still working on that one.

Enjoy,

Mike

Any dog that  showes handler aggression,is usually asked for it. Any dog that showes handler aggression for no reason,is just mentally sick period.Now can any one tell me a handler agressive dog that showes agression every time he is asked to do something by it's handler?


 Now those people who talking about the vedio of Max eating food and showing agression has nothing to do with handler agression.Itr is a learned behaviour,and you can teach this behaviour very easily specially to those puppies who show this behaviour at an early stage.Also it has nothing to do with food drive,if you have been around enough puppies in your life you will know some puppies show this natural behaviour of garding what is thier more than other puppies.

And yes i have never title a dog before and i do not intend to,and it neve means that i do not know what i am talking about .Also i possess knowledge about many people who have been titling dogs for last thirty years and still can not carry on an intelligent conversation about dog training,and what a good is.have a nice one.

mike
we also have MACdonalds in holland now , so nothing new there