Working Line GSD Is there a difference in breeding? sport vs. work - Page 11

Slam,
what you wrote sounds very interesting.  The new police dogs i have seen seem very green.  They are great dogs of course but seem to lack complete training.  They dont seem like a finished product.  I have seen videos of dogs that take the suspect out and fight, take a beating and show not even the smallest sign of avoidence and some dogs that will run with or around the suspect.  What do you think they should do with the second type?  And the experienced k9's do they still bite full mouth if they were in the first place or do they have more of a frontal grip bite?

Robert

Steve, nice try on baiting some body with terminology for Sch/Police(LOL), but must get up earlier in morning than that for me. I agree with what Jim said and would have whether it was your dog or not....this dog has the pedigree to be a world class Sch dog. Or super Sch dog as Jim says. If you look at her pedigree she is from a saturation of world class sch dogs, why would I not evaluate her the same based on pedigree. She has super pedigree!!

Jenni78,
To everyone else...what would you call PP training w/no equipment?   Really good training....Either a crazy decoy or Police work. 
 
Robert,
New police dogs are generally very green.  It takes time on the street to finish a new dogs training and make it truly proficient at it's job. Where I am new K9's and their handlers go through a 4 or 5 month school.  There is a lot to teach a dog in 4 months.  The training is on going once the dog certifies and hits the street.  My dog has a full crushing grip, it's genetic.  He bites the sleeve, suit or a person with a full calm hard crushing grip.  His grips have not changed, if anything they have gotten harder.  He doesn't out from a person as quickly as a suit or sleeve though, but he still outs.  We have dogs in our unit that bite very full and hard and some that bite hard but not as full.  Sometimes a frontal bite does more damage and is harder than a full bite.  It is harder for a dog to hang on when it bites frontal, IMO.  We do spend time on grip development in our training even for the seasoned dogs.  Most of our dogs will bite whatever they can get and most will regrip pretty full.  Keep in mind for a police K9, hard is more important than full.  I'm just spoiled that I have both.

Jim

Jim & Gustav
Yes, She i think is a special little Girl, I could see from the age she could get about there was a little something special about her and i am pleased i had a hand in picking out her Daddy and the breeder agreed to let me have my way and mate his female to the Male of my choice
She has everything one can wish for at the age she is, The thing that impresses me most of all is her speed over the ground She has done no work at all now for two months because i could not get to the training clubs for lack of transport, But i think it has given her a time to grow without any pressure and of course a chance for adult teeth to settle in
Now she is 7.5 months old, and i think a few helpers are going to be very suprised at the speed she covers the ground 
 But we know that only time will tell I wonder in 12 months from now if i will be writing about her then
Steve1

Yes, that would be me.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=509123&modir=577883

This is a breeding that I,m going to do this fall after the female gets her hip cert back.

I,m keeping the whole litter well into there second year to pick the male that I prefer I,m hoping to be able to donate to a law enforcement agency if there is a need. 

If all the stars align properly we will see if we can get both from this litter.

There has been a good discussion here and lots of opinions from people from different venues we can all learn things from one another and our chosen venues when 1 closes there mind from learning from the other then they show ignorance because we can all learn from one another. 


Every venue of training is tuff to achieve  that has a use full purpose or a working purpose and we should all strive to be our best in that chosen venue without belittling the other.


  

To everyone else...what would you call PP training w/no equipment? Really good training....Either a crazy decoy or Police work. - Slamdunc

My only point in this was that there can be a difference between PP training and sport training if there is a complete absence of equipment, via sheer insanity or whatever you want to call it. In most cases, what most people call "personal protection training" is to me, nothing but Sch. training without tracking or obedience. 

Bob- good call on keeping the whole litter. I have told a few people that if I ever do a certain breeding, I will be keeping them all for quite some time. I think it's the only way you really KNOW.

Jenni78,
So do we agree on this?   We seem to be agreeing a lot lately. what's going on here?

I  was saying that PSA, SchH or PP is a sport when equipment is involved.  Until, the trainer can develop scenario based training with out equipment where the handler and dog are both placed under stress simultaneously it is a sport.  These are the situations we spend hours working on when planning our training scenarios.  A couple of us will plan each week's training and not inform the other handlers of type of training scenario or what the outcome should be.  We will not even disclose the training location to the other handlers, because once you park all the k9 vehicles near each other, the dog's know it's training time.  Once the dog has had some real street bites, the training becomes easier to make it rreal for the dog. 

Bob, super pedigree and I agree with your post.  I don't think I'd keep the whole until they are 2 or so.  15 to 18 months is kind of ideal to start as a police dog.  You can do a lot of imprinting and foundation training with the pups and young dogs.  When I begin to train another pup to replace my current K9 I will do some thing s differently.  No "automatic outs" anymore for my SchH dogs or future K9's.  I would start a puppy with leg bites to get it used to biting the leg.  I would use a sleeve for bite development and that is about it, I'd go to a suit as soon as the dog has really strong grips.  I would still do SchH style tracking to teach the dog to be methodical, but I would also add in some air scenting training as well.  It's a tremendous amount of fun and certainly worthwhile.  Good for you.    

Jim

Jenni78,
So do we agree on this? We seem to be agreeing a lot lately. what's going on here?

Dunno, Jim. Either you're getting smarter or I'm getting dumber.

This pains me to say, but what you said about the dog and handler being stressed simultaneously is exactly where I was leading with my question. When NEITHER of you knows what to expect around a corner and both react naturally, then, and only then, IMO, can you truly say you are training for something real and not a sport. You also actually get to see what your dog really is...which probably 90% of people (civilians) never do.

Once you demonstrate a handful of times that your dog absolutely will work in a real situation, I find you run out of decoys pretty fast. LOL.