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by troublelinx on 30 December 2009 - 02:12
I am a PSA person myself. I find that PSA training is closer to real presonal protection training than schutzhund. Not to take any thing away from schutzhund. I really dig the obedience. I find that even with PSA I have to do more to proof my dog. but I agree with the last post. PSA and personal protection training for real life have a lot of simularities. I got my PDC last summer Next summer I plan to get PSA1on my Dog . Possibly even PSA2. I doubt I will get a PSA3 with thisdog although she is better than many working line GSD I have seen. She actuall is better Than the Chicago police dogs that we train with. But that PSA3 is very hardcore. I would love to see some of the schutzhund people achieve that title. PSA is much more realistic. In real life there is a limit to what a dog can do. Some dogs can handel more preasure than other dogs. It seems as if any dog can get the Sch3. So compare the number of Sch3 dogs to PSA3 dogs. Work wise PSA3 is much more preasure on the dog, very few dogs are trained to this level.
by give that dog a job on 30 December 2009 - 02:12
well my intent on my post was not purely directed at protection. However
PSA3 is any scenario goes. If the judge can think it up the dog has to preform. Whether it be a fleeing suspect behind a truck with 4 decoys awaiting with blazing guns(9mm blanks) or taking a guy off a bike. or a guy stealing your car haveing to bite by jumping through passenger window to bite the assalent driving away with call out back out the passenger window and 50 yard call off while having to find the gun the assailent droped on his way back. Its real!
not walk so many paces go bite a sleeve, out, sit and bark. how does this truely test a dog. I mean the blind search is no longer a search its run around and get your reward bite in the end.
I too have a new pup i am planning to trial in PSA this year. You are absolutely right about few dogs reaching there psa3 level. I actually had the pleasure of seeing Greg Williams get his 3 his first time up. He wasnt even going to trial but we pushed him into it. Its them times you dont care you do the best haha. However he was the 1st ever that i know of to pass on his first try.
you have to train for all aspects you could encounter therefore being more realistic for gauging a dog in the real world.
evem so I would like to see a dual purpose aspect added to it. To accurately gauge a dogs ability to use his nose.
PSA3 is any scenario goes. If the judge can think it up the dog has to preform. Whether it be a fleeing suspect behind a truck with 4 decoys awaiting with blazing guns(9mm blanks) or taking a guy off a bike. or a guy stealing your car haveing to bite by jumping through passenger window to bite the assalent driving away with call out back out the passenger window and 50 yard call off while having to find the gun the assailent droped on his way back. Its real!
not walk so many paces go bite a sleeve, out, sit and bark. how does this truely test a dog. I mean the blind search is no longer a search its run around and get your reward bite in the end.
I too have a new pup i am planning to trial in PSA this year. You are absolutely right about few dogs reaching there psa3 level. I actually had the pleasure of seeing Greg Williams get his 3 his first time up. He wasnt even going to trial but we pushed him into it. Its them times you dont care you do the best haha. However he was the 1st ever that i know of to pass on his first try.
you have to train for all aspects you could encounter therefore being more realistic for gauging a dog in the real world.
evem so I would like to see a dual purpose aspect added to it. To accurately gauge a dogs ability to use his nose.
by Jenni78 on 30 December 2009 - 02:12
Not to derail the thread, but troublelinx, are you near Chicago? There is PSA in Chicago???
by troublelinx on 30 December 2009 - 03:12
Yes there is PSA in Chicago. Does that suprise you? Are you asking because your in chicago and interested in psa?
by yankee girl on 30 December 2009 - 04:12
give your dog a job,
i agree with what u say. i too train psa and will be going for my pdc & psa1 this yr. we are a small club in southern maine started by a group of friends who got together every week to train. our training is above and beyond how most train. its alot of fun too. our dogs are exposed to all types of enviromental situations.
my girl was trained for PP and takes her job very serious. stable in any situation, great balanced drives and does great in the psa training. she loves the fight but will not score to high in the ob. she is ob, just not flashy.
nothing against the flashy heel, i just prefer my dog to be doing her job, which is to protect me, not stair in my eyes.
i have nothing against sports dogs and the training, i would actually like to do sch with her in the future but for now i really like the psa. we do so much enviormental stuff that its nice to know she can handle any situation.
to answer the question, genetics and training are the key. almost any dog can do the pattern training. especially since there is little pressure put on them. not all dogs can do real work. there are alot of sch dogs who can do real work, but alot who cant.
i agree with what u say. i too train psa and will be going for my pdc & psa1 this yr. we are a small club in southern maine started by a group of friends who got together every week to train. our training is above and beyond how most train. its alot of fun too. our dogs are exposed to all types of enviromental situations.
my girl was trained for PP and takes her job very serious. stable in any situation, great balanced drives and does great in the psa training. she loves the fight but will not score to high in the ob. she is ob, just not flashy.
nothing against the flashy heel, i just prefer my dog to be doing her job, which is to protect me, not stair in my eyes.
i have nothing against sports dogs and the training, i would actually like to do sch with her in the future but for now i really like the psa. we do so much enviormental stuff that its nice to know she can handle any situation.
to answer the question, genetics and training are the key. almost any dog can do the pattern training. especially since there is little pressure put on them. not all dogs can do real work. there are alot of sch dogs who can do real work, but alot who cant.
by Jenni78 on 30 December 2009 - 07:12
Troublelinx, there was no PSA in Chicago last time I checked, which admittedly was several years ago. Yes, I'm interested. As far as sports go, it's about the only one I'd be interested in. I have a dog or two who would enjoy it as well, I think.
by steve1 on 30 December 2009 - 07:12
I really wonder where some of you Guys are coming from in the way you think about dogs, no only on this thread but many more in the past
No matter whether you start to train a dog as PSA or SchH, or anything else regarding a Job for the Dog , You start with the basic dog
Some dogs pick up what you want of them quicker than other dogs do
Some of the dogs will have more fire in there bellies than other dogs it is as simple as that
Folk here keep going on about the better dog meaning working dog as against a Sports dog
If you train a Dog for Sport that is if it has the necessary qualifications meaning drives etc then that dog is trained for that
But it does not mean that if the owner had gone a different course with that Dog it would not be as good at doing another job
This also applies to a dog trained to be a PSA dog, had it not been taken down that road it may well have made a great sports dog in ScHh had it been trained for it
The deciding factor is what YOU the handler wants to do with your dog, The dog has no say or option but to follow you the handler
As for Dogs having one quality for doing one job against another unless you try the dog in both to prove otherwise then no one can say which is the better dog
We can talk all we like as to what is what, but proof is the only truth
Over in this side of the world we do not have personal protection dogs on the whole
I have in 60 plus years never owned a Dog with the reason to protect me it was here as a pal and because i like dogs around me, Nor have i ever expected a dog to protect me
The Dog is my property and as such it is up to me to protect the Dog should it come down to it
Of course i would expect the dog to warn me of an intruder breaking into my property, but i would not stand by for the dog to protect me No it would be the other way round with perhaps the help of the Dog for he would then help out
Cultures are different i know , People certainly think differently you folk over there in the USA sure think different than i do regards Dogs amd a lot in general, but then we live a long way apart and the lives are different as are the situations
Sometimes i find your sayings and ways of thinking certainly differently to how i do, but that is what makes the forum so interesting and it makes the world go around
Steve1
No matter whether you start to train a dog as PSA or SchH, or anything else regarding a Job for the Dog , You start with the basic dog
Some dogs pick up what you want of them quicker than other dogs do
Some of the dogs will have more fire in there bellies than other dogs it is as simple as that
Folk here keep going on about the better dog meaning working dog as against a Sports dog
If you train a Dog for Sport that is if it has the necessary qualifications meaning drives etc then that dog is trained for that
But it does not mean that if the owner had gone a different course with that Dog it would not be as good at doing another job
This also applies to a dog trained to be a PSA dog, had it not been taken down that road it may well have made a great sports dog in ScHh had it been trained for it
The deciding factor is what YOU the handler wants to do with your dog, The dog has no say or option but to follow you the handler
As for Dogs having one quality for doing one job against another unless you try the dog in both to prove otherwise then no one can say which is the better dog
We can talk all we like as to what is what, but proof is the only truth
Over in this side of the world we do not have personal protection dogs on the whole
I have in 60 plus years never owned a Dog with the reason to protect me it was here as a pal and because i like dogs around me, Nor have i ever expected a dog to protect me
The Dog is my property and as such it is up to me to protect the Dog should it come down to it
Of course i would expect the dog to warn me of an intruder breaking into my property, but i would not stand by for the dog to protect me No it would be the other way round with perhaps the help of the Dog for he would then help out
Cultures are different i know , People certainly think differently you folk over there in the USA sure think different than i do regards Dogs amd a lot in general, but then we live a long way apart and the lives are different as are the situations
Sometimes i find your sayings and ways of thinking certainly differently to how i do, but that is what makes the forum so interesting and it makes the world go around
Steve1
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 30 December 2009 - 09:12
YOur questions are all very ambiguous, so here are my answers.
I pose this question from a genitic standpoint. ---- Okay.
If we took a Sch3 working line GSD, would that same dog work well as lets say a dual purpose k9. ----- Impossibe to tell for sure.
Lets say we took that same dog and instead of training for soprt we trained for police work. Would that same dog excell. ---- Maybe, maybe not, no way to know for sure.
If a person is looking for a gsd for real life work is it best to go to a breeder who is a top trainer an get a pup from their breeding from parents who have scored high in compeition. --- No way to know and give a definitive answer.
Are there breeders breeding for actual working dogs as opossed to a good sport dog? --- Yes, there are.
do you think that there is a difference or is a good sport the same as a good working dog? --- Define a good working dog and define a good sporting dog and see if that definition is the same. There is your difference (or no differencefor that matter). My apple is not same as your apple and my orange may be your apple.
By the way I have seen a lot of high line GSD sch3 that probably were not worth crap if a real life encounter happened on the street. ---- Perhaps. Maybe yes, maybe no. No way to tell until it actualy happened.
I pose this question from a genitic standpoint. ---- Okay.
If we took a Sch3 working line GSD, would that same dog work well as lets say a dual purpose k9. ----- Impossibe to tell for sure.
Lets say we took that same dog and instead of training for soprt we trained for police work. Would that same dog excell. ---- Maybe, maybe not, no way to know for sure.
If a person is looking for a gsd for real life work is it best to go to a breeder who is a top trainer an get a pup from their breeding from parents who have scored high in compeition. --- No way to know and give a definitive answer.
Are there breeders breeding for actual working dogs as opossed to a good sport dog? --- Yes, there are.
do you think that there is a difference or is a good sport the same as a good working dog? --- Define a good working dog and define a good sporting dog and see if that definition is the same. There is your difference (or no differencefor that matter). My apple is not same as your apple and my orange may be your apple.
By the way I have seen a lot of high line GSD sch3 that probably were not worth crap if a real life encounter happened on the street. ---- Perhaps. Maybe yes, maybe no. No way to tell until it actualy happened.
by cage on 30 December 2009 - 10:12
Steve,
You hit the nail!!!
I don´t like dividing dogs into "sport" and "real" dogs.Good dog is a good dog.Good dog must have strong nerves and high drives,learns quickly and is willing to work.I know a lot of so-called sport dogs who would be great police dogs and vice versa.
Just one question : What lines do most of the police and PSA dogs come from?
Maca
You hit the nail!!!
I don´t like dividing dogs into "sport" and "real" dogs.Good dog is a good dog.Good dog must have strong nerves and high drives,learns quickly and is willing to work.I know a lot of so-called sport dogs who would be great police dogs and vice versa.
Just one question : What lines do most of the police and PSA dogs come from?
Maca
by judron55 on 30 December 2009 - 11:12
German Shepherds are German Shepherds......the same pedigree you're using for police work is the same for schutzhund, psa, KNVP, whatever.....now with that being said....some dogs make good police dogs...some don't....from the same litter! Most dogs trained for schutzhund aren't given the tools to become anything else....and I've seem plenty of dogs that would have been better trained for police work. This versatile breed can do whatever if the genetic package is there with good training!
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