Working Line GSD Is there a difference in breeding? sport vs. work - Page 3

It always depends on each dog.

If we want a dog for sports or a dog for real work then we get a pup from the working lines,getting a pup from working lines will narrow down the guess work on what will the pups be when they mature compared to getting a pup from the showlines but still there is no guarantee.

After we get the pup we give them the foundation needed,we train them and do almost everything to build confidence.

Pups are a gamble. Let's say we want a dog to compete in sports but the pup turned out to be a very civil dog then let's say we want a real protection dog but the pup turned out to be a prey driven dog who only likes to play tug.

Just my 2 cents.

 
 
 

Steve1,

I dont get why your email read the way it did as we were agreeing with what you wrote. If you saw what i wrote above it states genetics, puppyhood developement, and training are the key into developing a sound real world dog. It's just some how we got off topic BSing about sport. all compound on each other though and you have to have genetics, then correct developement through life which is where most dogs aare done wrong.hoever thats a different topic.

I agree with the state some dogs could go different paths and be trained for sch or real work. However there are a small percentage who possess the ability to do real work throughout the schh community.

there is a distinct difference in dogs for sport and real world. there are many good dogs wasted away on schh to. As there training was not there to develope there naural abilities for a real world setting( that a some posessed). I agree 100% with the guy above that police dogs, sport dogs, and family companions can come out of the same litter. Even with proven working line dogs.

to the guy above,

you can assess pupppies and good breeders will assess pups through time for them to leave and inform you of how the dog is going to turn out if the work is done right throught it developement!

I have titled dogs in sport and I have trained military and police dogs. Dogs from the same litter can do both if they have the tools. AND you do need good nerves, drives, and socialization to go with the training. The primary difference in the two is any dog that can become a police/PSA dog could also be titled in Sch. But many Sch dogs could not become policedogs or pass PSA. Very similar to most males in the US could pass basic training in the Army. But only a select few of those recruits could become special forces. Training is more rigorous, mental toughness is more demanding, etc. Not talking about podium dogs just SCH. Many Showline dogs with Sch degrees would not cut the police academy or pass PSA, no matter who the trainer was because it isn't in them internally. Many sport dogs won't either, but of course there are sport dogs if trained differently from start and an occaisional showline that could make the police cut. But to say that a Sch dog with a different training background could become a police patrol dog, is just speculation until that dog is subjected to the different and more rigorous standards that a police dog must endure.Germany is over on the European side of the water, they have more Sch dogs than anyplace in the world(of top quality), and the police in Sturggart(sp) Police School over a decade ago started complaining about not being able to get good German Shepherds for police work, thus going to Mals also. These were police trainers in Germany who had access to some of the best SCH lines and dogs in the world. Yet, too many Sch dogs couldn't cut it. Now that is not an American thing that is a reality thing. 

well said and i like the analogies.

I have only personally been at the trial and witness 3 dogs previously schh3 titled come into PSA and title. Granted all three of them never reached above a PSA1 which is extreme easy compared to the 2's and 3's. Not to say there isnt more but trials I have been at this is all I have seen.


i personally would like to see PSA and a tracking, or scent detection aspect to the game as well for dual purpose work. I think that would give an accurate depiction of a dogs real world capabilitys as a dual pupopse k9 officer. but thats not gonna happen. to many variables i think in nose work. But it would be nice to have a side aspect on the title for dual purpose dogs.

Not to get all B.F.Skinner on this thread, but, when we discuss training, is it possible that we discount mom's influence in the first eight weeks or so of life?  Just a thought.

RFS

Gustave
exactly what i have said but probably in a different way
Once the owner has bought  the Pup and i take it he or she will have done there  homework regards its linage  , then if you are into training a Dog for the Police then you take the Dog down that path, Now let us say it works out, Now we go another way you have the same Pup but want to do the sports side ScHh who is to say that which ever path you choose the Dog would not be good at either one
For sure if you come across a Pup who has all the qualities you look for in a working dog and for sure you can see from an early age if it has those qualities,
it is then up to you to bring them out and then take the Pup down that chosen path If a Pup has strong nerves Good drives but can remain sure and confident, Meaning switch off from  one to the other then that Dog should do well in whatever path you take it down, I fortunately have such a Pup, One never knows for sure at such a young age But she would be able to do well as a Police Dog or as a Sports Dog but the path chosen is as a sports dog
However one thing NO one ever mentions is this
Some Dog handlers are better than other Dog Handlers that is nothing new and that applies in everything in life.
So perhaps a Dog would be better with a better handler than say myself, Perhaps she would go higher, But that is hypothetical anyway for it is not possible to farm out Dogs because someone is better than another again things do not work out that way, But that too is a big factor in what ever path the handler takes his Dog
Overall if you buy the right Pup then you do with it as you choose, there are no Dogs bred which will do better in say Police work or ScHh sport unless as i say you engage the Dog in both to test it, otherwise it is not possible to know the outcome
Breeding Linage, Genetics count for  most, But also the ability of the owner to be able to recognize that little something special in a Baby Pup, and if you are lucky to be able to do that then that is a great thing to have
Steve1

 
In America I hope that the primary requirement for a police dog is not that he can be a good buddy. People who think like this probable are in the market for a rescue dog or a West German Show dog. True that my dog is indeed my bud. However the dog before this one was sent back to the breeder because the working ability was not true to the past breeding or the bloodline. My wife frequently goes for long walks down the bike path near our home. Legally she cannot carry a firearm due to State laws. I do feel more at ease knowing that the GSD is with her. Hopefully a deterrent is all she needs to be. If necessary she would be a good defensive (held on leash) tool as opposed to offensive (sent a distance off leash). If an intruder breaks in hell yea I want a dog that would tear him to pieces. The intruder would also have to deal with me as I would also try to tear him to pieces. She is very capable of this but she is even tempered not shy sharp and can be petted.
I think the same for police dogs. I do not think it is wise to send a dog if the handler is not able to assist in the apprehension.
When we compare PSA to SCH we must be honest with ourselves. The 2’s and 3’s require a lot of obedience. This is true for SCH as well. However when the agitator is not giving the dog a bite and fending the dog off with 2 five gallon water jugs it is difficult to compare this with anything in SCH. I would say any PSA 1,2 or3 dog could excel at SCH with proper training. But a SCH dog doing well at PSA even with the proper training I am not so sure of. Especially after seeing Sch trials. Of course some SCH dogs do just fine in PSA. One of our club members has a SCH 3 dobe and he has a PSA1, I have no doubt this dog cloud achieve a 2 or 3.
I don’t mean to sound negative towards SCH it is just that many of these dogs seem to be trained purely in prey with very little defense. Most people know that all you need is a lot of prey and a little defense to get through sch. Sometimes I wonder if the dog even sees the person that is standing behind the sleeve. Does the dog even know that person exists? My concern it that after a few years of selective breeding dogs for traits that will carry them through sch the dogs temperaments will change. This will throw off the prey/defense balance. And sure even in a good working liter some dogs will not make the cut for police or sport for that matter. But it is wise to play the odds in your favor. The best GSD I ever was work in person was Fabian von Mittelwest a show dog. Would I ever buy one? Not unless it was Fabian. A bit of a genetic freak. Probably would never reproduce himself. I prefer to keep the odds in my favor and stick with the working line.

Maca,
Not sure what lines most police use, as far as PSA goes most do not use GSD lines at all.  Most are Dutch Shepherd or Malinois.  To go far in PSA you would have to be picky when choosing a GSD.  And ability wise The Dutch and Mal seem to have a genitic advantage.

Robert

troublelinx
If you start a Pup off on work as a Police Dog then you train it as such for that work
Now if you train the same Pup for Schh then you train it for that
Now if that same Pup does not have the necessary qualities it will fail or not do well at either
But no one can say that a Pup Trained as a Police Dog would make a good ScH dog or the same with a good ScH dog would make a good police Dog, Unless the same dog is tested in both no one can be sure only what we think
Now i know a Guy who has trained German Shepherd Dogs in Schh for 40 years, He has also in the same space of time helped to train the Belgian Police Force Dogs, and still does when he gets the time, It will be interesting to here what he has to say about it,
As i say he has done both for a long time so it will be interesting to here what he says about the difference and if a Police Dog would make a good job of Sch but a good Sch dog would not be any good as a Police Dog
My take on it as i have said now twice If you train it from a Pup or young age to do a thing then if it has the right credentials in its blood it will do it no matter whether it be trained as a Police Dog or a Sports Dog.
However i will see him on Sunday at training and ask him what he thinks
Steve1