Well Bred vs Backyard Bred - Page 11

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rainforestscouts

by rainforestscouts on 20 January 2010 - 00:01

How limited do you think the gene pool becomes when you require a dog to "prove" it is breedworthy through schutzhund or show?  We have all read the threads on this forum like "what is the minimum title that you would consider breeding to?", or "is a herding title really a title?" or even, "Schutzhund sucks, PSA rules."  The nearest active schutzhund club for many people is 2-3 hrs from home.  Still many more are interested in what they themselves view as utility in a dog.  And, believe it or not, a dog's utility can be measured in many ways for which there are no titles. 
Think about it for a second...  (1 Mississippi) ... Let's say you were hosting an open audition for your next GSD stud.  Your only goal is to find the best genetic donor for your bitch.  What tests would you include?  Which elements of Shutzhund would you include or exclude?  Would you want to see a dog that is worked daily in the same manner or would you want to evaluate the dogs' spontaneous reaction to a new stimulus.  When you got a call from an interested suitor, what would you ask?  How many would you not even evaluate because they don't have a name that includes vom, von, or zet?

What ever happened to DR?

RFS

4pack

by 4pack on 20 January 2010 - 04:01

DR, cut the RFS crap already but great question.

Spontaneous reaction is the best test, so you see what is really the dog, not a trained response. I'd like to see how a dog works with his handler, lives with his family, how quickly he picks up new training and how fast he recovers from anything that stresses him. Titles aren't the end all. If it takes a dog 6 yrs and 9 trials to finally get a pass, I'd like to know why? Slow learner, not a points dog, not enough control, bad/not the right training for that dogs temp or falls apart under pressure?

I'd use a untitled dog who is untitled because it's an obvious handler handycap, not the dogs issue. I'd use a dog that wasn't even worked for sport or policework, if I knew him/her and could see he/she had what it takes and complimented my own dog. There are many many nice dogs out there with good genetics and clueless/uninterested owners. Of course these dogs aren't out there or advertised, so harder to stumble upon.

VonIsengard

by VonIsengard on 20 January 2010 - 15:01

Ulli, as usual, a direct and to the point post based in actual knowledge, nor hearsay and assumption!

Yoschy, up here in Northern IL we have plenty of showline K9s that do a mighty fine job! And some of them are even out of (gasp!) VA dogs!

I've said it a hundred times and I'll say it a hundred more. Very rarely do showlines get the upbringing and training workinglines do. The mature differently, and sometimes require a different approach than workinglines do. Their motivation can be different. Funny, how in the sport world so many trainers decide a certain type of dog is crap just because they don't know how to train it.

To the pet owners posting their staunch support of showlines dogs: Argue they they are great companions for you then please stop. Do not attempt to argue about working dogs when you have 0 experience with them, debate based in ignorance of the topic really just hurts those who make points based on actual experience.

yoshy

by yoshy on 20 January 2010 - 16:01

Here is where you're wrong. There have either always been underlying health problems or there haven't been; genetic flaws to not spontaneously generate themselves. If a group of dogs has no genes for a given trait, that trait will never appear (except for possibly in the case of a chromosome anomaly which would be limited to the individual) despite how closely they are inbred or line bred, how often or for how long.

you are correct to a degree. but if you look a hounds for example. years ago  (still some today but not as prevalent)
many of the hunters did not have the money or the means of travel to seek outside there lines. They were heavily inbred for generations. The litter size decreased and had many many cull dogs. The pups kept alive were selected ruthlessly. and i mean ruthlessly as the rest were killed.the ones kept may be 1 dog out of a littler of three. or the one pup litter had been killed do to insufficiently in that one dog. When you breed that close you either come up with a cull dogs or a super dog so to speak. If you want to learn about close line and inbreeding study the old hounds. It was done religiously. The flawed traits will be brought out much more significantly in a high percentage of dogs. 

there was a very limited gene pool to begin with which isn't the case

All purebreds are a closed gene pool. Simple fact. I don't care if you breed a million pups. The gene pool is still closed and originated from the original 12.dogs. So the dogs are inbreed and closely line bred to create the pure breed. Thats why we have specific genetic issues tied to breeds. Dogs dying younger, diminished immune systems, bloat, HD, ED, etc....

When you create an off shoot to that you close off another circle to take a portion of the original gene pool. You once again have to take the same road  and compound upon those issues. The dogs aren't selected for breeding/ living as ruthlessly as the hounds were back the in the example above so you create a week pool. So without the selection process being all inclusive and stricken down it is destined to fail.

This is why in just working lines you see your old ddr, czech, east ger, west ger,and all of these lines. the all hold different traits as the pool was closed for years. Now you have people who cross them to end up with the dogs they want to blend the traits. However in the working lines the lines were more selectively approached to maintain the ability of the dogs as well as some conformation because they needed them for police and miltary(due to wars) and couldnt afford to loose there durability.

Show gets a bad rep as now the fads of confirmation of show dogs in general creates it own breeding problem. You problems also come from negligent breeders who do breed for only the listed traits need for a good paper dog to make money(not that others dont). Therefore not being as ruthlessly selective in the breeding's of that second closed pool you will become haunted with a great many issues. Along with the changes in angulation, structure, stride and power will put the show line at a disadvantage in some tasks agreed? now we have said there are diamonds in the ruff. and anyone who has worked dogs knows heart in a dog can overcompensate for a lot. But the changes made due to fads, and the vast majority of wrongful breeding's has and will continue to lead to your demise. 


snajper69

by snajper69 on 20 January 2010 - 16:01

I will just say this I will buy a dog off BYB any time, rather than going to some of those "experience" true breeders. Through most of my life I own mostly dogs from BYB or "upppsss" litters, and they been one of the best dogs I ever owned. And with these so called experience breeders is miss or hit thing, and almost every single dog had some issues. So BYB you actually get you money worth most of the times, while the others you usually get expensive crap shoot. Plus most of the dogs that I got from BYB were not line breed x times on the same names over and over, just two solid dogs mated together, with hope to produce another solid dog. I don't belive in line breeding for me is bulshitt, that brings out as many bads as goods, so I rather take a chance and know that the issues are not linebread on. And for those that say well I do my homework, unless you owned both "dam" and "sire" and other from these lines you jsut guessing because there is no such thing as 100% disclosure.

Keith Grossman

by Keith Grossman on 20 January 2010 - 16:01

"However in the working lines the lines were more selectively approached to maintain the ability of the dogs as well as some conformation because they needed them for police and miltary(due to wars) and couldnt afford to loose there durability."

Is this something that you want to believe or something you can quantify?  If the latter, please do so and provide something more substantial than anecdotal evidence.

"Show gets a bad rep as now the fads of confirmation of show dogs in general creates it own breeding problem. You problems also come from negligent breeders who do breed for only the listed traits need for a good paper dog to make money(not that others dont). Therefore not being as ruthlessly selective in the breeding's of that second closed pool you will become haunted with a great many issues. Along with the changes in angulation, structure, stride and power will put the show line at a disadvantage in some tasks agreed?"

Are you talking about American show lines or German show lines?

yoshy

by yoshy on 20 January 2010 - 17:01

Look at the zPS lines in czech(i use this name because of popularity.). they have produced solid dogs for border patrol/miltary/police since 55. in a closed pool for some years even with the eventual outsource to ddr lines. but they were extremely selective in there breeding. and washout were not bred or genetically flawed dogs were not bred to the extent possible in hopes of keeping high performance dogs in the field. There were many others who tried to hold a similar standard in providing dogs for service throughout the wars, and upholding the lines through the past century.

as we know though many did not as well. many washed out. many were sent to the US. but the capability is there and there are some very stable preserved lines through breeding as efficiently as possible.

I was not alive then or in the kennels when it was done. so no firm "eyes own" evidence. However through research and seeing the caliber dogs remaining from these specifics places, it brings weight to the biographies, and history of these lines, breeding farms, and contracted kennels.

Keith Grossman

by Keith Grossman on 20 January 2010 - 17:01

I'd be interested in learning about it if you can provide any sources.  I think people tend to minimize how closed and controlled those societies were.

by crhuerta on 20 January 2010 - 17:01

Yet again.....another topic that has become...WL vs SL........

yoshy

by yoshy on 20 January 2010 - 17:01

keith i am actually going this weekend to me jiri at hans. jiri worked there for 21 years. and is now the national breed warden for czech. So I will have all weekend to pull and consede the validity of information researched 1st hand from the man that made a lot of it happen. This is a lot of my interest and reasonings for going.

So hopefully here shortly we can hold a side bar and discuss this in greater detail.





 


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